18. Whitney and Ryan Huffman - Beyond Theory

Ryan Huffman:

Our whole approach was to let it grow organically, to do business the right way, work with people in the right way, treat people right, build those relationships, really just... I mean, coddle those relationships and build that trust over time. I think that when you do things that way, our belief was good things are going to come.

Whitney Huffman:

We set out to be the best. We wanted to be the best. We set out to invest in relationships. So when it comes to what kind of business, for us, I think that that was second-level criteria. The first-level criteria was, who is it? What kind of people are they?

Aaron Ackerman:

From HoganTaylor, I'm Aaron Ackerman, and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. On each episode of the show, we sit down with business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of How That Happened. My guests on the show today are Ryan and Whitney Huffman. They are the co-founders and owners of a full-service marketing company in Oklahoma City called Beyond Theory. Hi, Ryan and Whitney. Thanks for being here. How are you guys?

Whitney Huffman:

Good morning.

Ryan Huffman:

Morning.

Whitney Huffman:

Thanks for having us.

Aaron Ackerman:

Really excited to have you guys on today. I think our listeners will enjoy hearing about your journey, about Beyond Theory, and everything. Maybe as just a jumping off point, you started Beyond Theory about five years ago. What were you doing before that? What was the compelling event that led, Ryan, to you making that decision that you wanted to go out on your own and start a company truly from scratch basically?

Ryan Huffman:

Well, prior to Beyond Theory, I was working for Griffin Communications. I had been both in the sales management and also on the sales side in the multimedia and then the television division. I mean, I was talking about this just last night, I think, but I think the compelling thing that happened was at some point I realized that I was already doing it. I was really consulting and that's a big piece of what we do. That's a big piece of why we started the company. That was our difference in our approach essentially, keep things from being transactional and passive and to really get to know these people.

When I was at Griffin, something that was really interesting that I think happened, we were in a sales meeting and in that sales meeting, we had... Every once in a blue moon, they would have these two cups and they would draw a name out of one cup and they would draw a product out of the other cup. I remember this day really well because they drew my name and they drew a product that... I mean, I knew what the product was, but the goal here was to essentially sell that product, role play a little bit and pitch this product to the team.

When they drew my name and then they drew the product, I realized, "Okay, I know what this product is, but I don't sell it." Up on the wall was my client as an example of this product, somebody who's using that product. At that time, I realized, "Man, I don't sell these products." And that's a big piece of what we did there, it was a big piece of what we were coached to do. Obviously, there was a million products to sell. But I remember the client was Brewer Floor Trader. It was either them or Brewer Carpet or Floor Trader. They had an expandable video or expandable footer ad.

Ryan Huffman:

And yeah, I had no way of pitching it and I just sat there. It was very embarrassing actually. But at the end of it, it just really resonated with me because that was the first time I had really realized what it was that I was doing that I felt like was a little different. I'd had a lot of, I felt like, success there over the years. I'd been at Griffin for... At that point, I don't know, at least probably nine years. I was really one of those people that flew under the radar, I feel like.

I excelled in sales, I excelled in growing my book of business, but I wasn't that person that just wanted to talk about everything and tell you exactly how I do it. I just did it through relationships and through building trust with people. At the end of the day, I looked up and I was 31 years old, I believe, at the time. And at 31, I go, "You know what? I want to go take a chance." That's what we did. Thankfully, my Whitney, my wife, was gracious enough to allow me that opportunity and we ran.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That's interesting. What was it though about that exercise, where you were on the spot, you had to, I guess, role play and pretend to sell this product to a client, what was it about that that, I guess, impacted you so much?

Ryan Huffman:

Well, one, I was never a big role player, so I didn't like that. But-

Aaron Ackerman:

I don't think anybody-

Ryan Huffman:

Yeah. I don't know that anybody loves that. I just think what impacted me the most was just realizing that I could do it and then looking at it and realizing, "Man, I've been doing this." Being where I was in that company, I got to see a lot of different sides of the business. I was negotiating, working with the agencies, and then I was also working on the customer side, the client-facing side. I would hear feedback, positive and negative, for their experiences with advertising agencies around the market.

I had my own experiences with them and I found that to be something that was really unique as far as an approach. There was not many of them, if any, that I had ever worked with that had that approach. So for me, it was an opportunity that I recognized and it was also something that had always been in me. I'd always had a really strong feeling about at some point going out and doing something on my own.

Aaron Ackerman:

So that was there already, and then as you built experience and had these events, they just pushed you to where it's like, "This is the time."

Ryan Huffman:

It really did. Yeah. That was just something that stood out as, I think, a pivotal point where I realized, "Man, something I've already been thinking about doing, I'm already doing it. I'm just not an advertising agency."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Okay, so that was five years ago or so. You and Whitney, you guys both had full-time jobs, steady income, and then this is a big change, right? You said something like Whitney was gracious enough or something to allow you to do that. From your perspective, Whitney, was that an easy decision? Was that scary as you guys decided, "Okay, we're going to give up half of our... " I don't know if it's half, but whatever. "We're going to give up one of our incomes and go do this thing that could be amazing, but we don't know for sure." Right?

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's very daunting to think about everything's going along fine and life is okay and then let's just throw a wrench in it and blow the deal up and go try something new. That is very daunting. But early in our relationship, this was actually before we were even married, I was building my career and trying to figure out who I was going to be and what I was going to do, and there was a pivotal point for me that Ryan actually had a really big impact, the whole impact I would say.

What he encouraged me to do was in effect going to be this big shift in my career. Essentially, he encouraged me, "Just bet on yourself, Whit. Go bet on yourself because you can do it." Years before we ever started the agency, Ryan had given me that little push in the back, "Hey, you can do it." I stepped out in faith and complete just, "Oh crap! If this doesn't work, I have no other plan." I did it and I was able to take that step in my career and be successful and surprise myself by doing some things I didn't think I could do. That was because he had really given me that courage to just bet on myself way back when.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's awesome.

Whitney Huffman:

So yeah, whenever he brought this idea to me, it was like, "Man, I have spent night after night for years hearing him come home from work and talking about things that a consultant would talk about." Not a salesperson, consultant. So whenever he brought this idea, I was like, "Well, yeah, you're going to bet on yourself. We're going to bet on us and we're going to do this deal." There's no better motivator than having no plan B, right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. You burn the ships and-

Whitney Huffman:

That's right.

Aaron Ackerman:

... there's only one way out.

Whitney Huffman:

... do it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That's awesome. I have this vision. If I were in your situation, I feel like it would be hard to... Because you started at the house. I remember you saying you were working upstairs in the office and that was Beyond Theory at that time. It was just you in the upstairs office. So Whitney goes to work, when you come home, are there conversations like, "Hey, Ryan, what'd you do today? How's it going? Are you selling anything? Have we got clients?" I think that might happen in a lot of houses. It would just be tempting. Then of course that could be a good conversation or it could turn weird for sure.

Ryan Huffman:

I don't think we ever really had too many of those moments. It was probably the flip for us. For me, working upstairs for that first year-

Whitney Huffman:

Oh my God!

Ryan Huffman:

... all I did was talk to walls. I missed people, other than my clients and getting out and meeting people of course. But you do spend time in the office, you have to. My office was upstairs and literally all I did was look out the one window I had and stare at the walls in between conversations and emails.

Whitney Huffman:

It was a jail.

Ryan Huffman:

She would come home from work and, I mean, I'm running downstairs because-

Aaron Ackerman:

You're ready to talk.

Ryan Huffman:

... I want to talk to somebody. I want to tell her about what happened today, I want to tell her about what's going on.

Aaron Ackerman:

She may be ready to decompress and yeah.

Whitney Huffman:

Yes. I was in sales and I was out seeing people like all day, there was no break to my day. So I would come home and be like, "Oh, I'm just going to chill for a second, put my gym clothes on, go to the gym." And then Ryan would just be like [inaudible 00:11:11]. He has so much to say, I'm just like, "Hang on."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That's funny.

Ryan Huffman:

I remember that very well.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. You guys have probably taken personality tests. I think you both are probably extroverts.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah.

Ryan Huffman:

She's more of an extrovert than I am. I'm right on the line.

Aaron Ackerman:

Really?

Ryan Huffman:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. Yeah. That's fine.

Ryan Huffman:

Which is interesting. Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Another thing about that time where you worked at home by yourself, one thing I've learned, for me, really in the last few years, is the transition for me between work and home in the evenings is really important. That's a time I try to get ready for the cadence of things at home, which is completely different than what I do at the office. So I have that little drive time or whatever where I'm just getting ready to go be dad, fill these other roles, be there, be present.

I could see when you're working at home, you're your own boss, you're just hustling. It'd be hard to not work 24/7. Was that something you ever thought about? Did you have to put a stake in the ground and go, "Okay. Work ends right now and I'm home," which maybe just means I'm walking into a different room, but, "I'm not at work. I'm at home now." Did you guys think about that or did you work 24/7? I mean, that's what I would probably do.

Ryan Huffman:

Yeah. I mean, there in the beginning, definitely, I was working a lot of hours. It may have even been a little bit easier, I think, which sounds crazy. But back then, whenever Whitney would come home, Taylor would come home, I'm already at the house, I'd take breaks and come downstairs and be with my family. But then at the end of the night, they go to bed or Taylor goes to bed and I'm right back upstairs working. So I would do that and handle it that way in the beginning. I think now it's even harder at this point in our company because I'm not at home working at home, but I'm in the office more now.

So my days or nights are later, sometimes in the evening now, so when I do go home... In fact, just recently, I've been trying to do this and leaving my laptop, not necessary at the office, because I may need it, but leaving it in my bag, not getting it out. If I have to do something, I even may do it from my phone just to keep that laptop from coming out, just giving me some separation. But yeah. I mean, there's no question, that's a challenge, I think, anybody would go through when you're taking that step because you got to go hard. There's no replacing that hustle or that grind.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. So you get some momentum, a couple years later then Whitney. You guys get to the point where you quit your full-time job and jump in. So were you employee number two or were there already somebody else on board at that point?

Whitney Huffman:

I was employee number two.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Okay. So you've got a couple years of track record and you probably feel like, "Okay, this thing is real." But still, emotionally, what was that like going, "Okay, I'm letting go of this thing for this thing, which could be our most amazing future, but there's still a little risk involved."?

Whitney Huffman:

For sure. Just even, I guess, financially to pull that last pin of security out, that took a lot of faith.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right. The backstop is gone now like so.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. It took a lot of faith. I think too for just my heart. Although I was spending my time doing this other thing, I had a sales career, my heart was really in the agency. So just as Ryan was coming home, working at night, I was working alongside him at night after the kids go to bed or whatever. At the time we had one. But yeah, I think just stepping out of, "Okay, that other piece of my life... " Where I felt like there was an upward trajectory and abandoning that and going, "Okay, I'm going to go all in over here," it was a huge risk. It was letting go of something I loved for something I loved more, right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Right. Yeah.

Whitney Huffman:

So you do it. But it's not without a little tinge of, "Dang! Am I really going to let that deal go?"

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Okay. Then now you're both full time, you got some stuff going out. You were talking to the walls and staring out the window early on. So were you able to start day one with a couple of clients or did you start with zero? How did you get clients? What was that like going from whatever day one was to when you're going, "Okay, we need to go hire people. This is a real company."? What was that like?

Ryan Huffman:

Well, in the beginning, whenever I left Griffin, I had, I think, three accounts. I think within six months of leaving, I had six or seven accounts. Our whole approach was to let it grow organically, to do business the right way, work with people in the right way, treat people right, build those relationships, really just... I mean, coddle those relationships and build that trust over time. I think that when you do things that way, our belief was good things are going to come.

People are going to take notice of that, people are going to see that, and organically, your company's going to grow. Now, that doesn't take away the fact that you got to go grow it outside of that. You can't just lean on that completely. But we started out obviously smaller than we are now, and over a couple years time, our agency had changed quite a bit. I think a lot of it was just in how we invested in the company and how we invested in ourselves. A big thing for us was to build our own brand and to make sure that people saw who we are really, who we are at our core, and put that out there.

We know and believe firmly that people work with people that they like, people that they trust. You have those decisions and those decisions are big decisions to make, who you work with. I don't know what the statistics are, but I think they say you spend like 75% of your life or something like that with the people you work with. So for us, that was a huge motivator in how we did business. We wanted to work with people that we liked and we wanted the people that worked with us to work with us because they liked us.

That doesn't get rid of the ROI that's involved in this business. You've got to perform, they've got to see success. You've got to bring something really valuable to the table other than just those strong relationships. But over those years, I think that that was a thing that really set us apart and has continued so far to separate our agency right now. It's all in how we do business. We've just stayed strong to that. And I think that looking at the processes or looking at how we did business then compared to how we do business now, I think the fact that we haven't changed the way we do business is what's really key.

And it's hard as you grow to not allow those things to change, but that's been something that I think has really helped us and pushed us forward in this industry to this point. When we first set out, you asked if she was the first employee or did we have other staff members at that time. We didn't necessarily have staff members at that time. But when we first started this company, something that I realized right off the bat was the people who are really, really good at what they do, one, they're either already snatched up and you can't hardly get them, probably can't get them, or they work for themselves.

Ryan Huffman:

So our plan was to go find those people and either try to pull them out of where they were or to find them and work with them from a... Some would call it a freelance standpoint. That allowed us to identify the talent in the marketplace, I think. So that impacted us a lot today because some of those individuals that we worked with then now work full-time for Beyond Theory. So even as a smaller agency, our company, I feel like, from a skillset standpoint, is that of a much larger agency. That continues to be the thing that we invest in and it continues to be the thing that I think pushes us forward.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. You touched on this, but let me have a little lead up here. A couple of times in my career, I've been part of starting something where you had no customers, no clients, and you had to build it. So I know there's a lot of pressure. Who we take on as clients when we don't have any versus when we've got all we want can be a little different. The phone rings, I don't care who it is, I'm going to answer and try to go serve this client.

Sometimes, I think that just that pressure to get the financial side rolling becomes super important, or it can. I know you guys are very intentional. So even in the early days, what kind of company did you set out to create? You alluded to this a little bit, but what was the culture you wanted? Building a culture, how important was that to you? Was that something you guys talked about early on when it was just the two of you and was it ever challenging to put culture or that whole what kind of company are we building on the back-burner as you're just trying to get-

Whitney Huffman:

Dollars in the door.

Aaron Ackerman:

Dollars in the door, exactly.

Whitney Huffman:

I'll answer that one. Yeah. There is a lot of pressure, and especially when your livelihood is on the line, especially when you've got mouths to feed or whatever. So I think we set out to be the best. We wanted to be best. We set out to invest in relationships. So when it comes to what kind of business, for us, I think that that was second-level criteria. The first-level criteria was, who is it? What kind of people are they? No matter what they do, what they manufacture, what they promote, whatever it is, who are they?

Do they believe in it? Are they trying to do right by themselves, do right by their colleagues, do right by the people that they serve? Are they trying to do the right thing? Because regardless of how big or small they were, we knew that if they were the right kind of people for us, that we could go in full-court press 100% and give them our best and we knew that would be reciprocated. That was the client criteria, and honestly, it still is the client criteria. I know a lot of people in our industry will have a low to high range of the kind of client they'll take on.

For us, it really doesn't look like that. It is, are you the type of person that not only us but our team can invest in and does that investment come back our way? That's really the deal. So yeah. I mean, in the early days, there are opportunities that come your way that maybe are good, not great. So it's tough. You got to just grin and bear it sometimes and just make sure you have a calculated no so that you can say yes when it's time to say yes because those poor nos will eat you up and then you can't go say yes to the thing.

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh, that is so smart. That is so good. It's so hard too, because here I'm a jerk, but here's a big check, and it's like-

Whitney Huffman:

That check looks so good.

Aaron Ackerman:

"Oh, that looks good." But you know it's going to be painful and probably end badly.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's really smart, especially when there is pressure. Now you've got all the work you want, it's easier to make those calls. But when you're growing-

Whitney Huffman:

Tough.

Aaron Ackerman:

... it's really tough. That's awesome. Okay, so you both have sales backgrounds. Obviously, your company has a lot of sales component to it. Every company does, right? But you're in a creative field, so what has that been like, running a creative agency? You mentioned finding talent. You guys are creative, I know that, but you got the sales background. What's that been like, just building a creative company from a sales starting point?

Whitney Huffman:

Great question. Are you looking at me?

Ryan Huffman:

It's up to you. You want to answer-

Whitney Huffman:

I'll take that one.

Ryan Huffman:

... or you want me to answer?

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. This was years ago, this was probably eight years ago, and it was a client that I think Ryan was going after at his previous company. And it was a client someone else had sold, that I hadn't even sold myself. But we were out, sitting around, I guess, at a lunch or whatever, and this guy who owns a business here that's extremely successful, he turned and looked at us... And I think he was picking our brains about his sales staff and how to go about looking for talent or whatever. And he said, "You sales people, why aren't you guys all just entrepreneurs?

That's what you are. You're just an entrepreneur working for someone else." That always stuck with me. I thought, "You know what? He is right." But there is, I think, some creativity that comes with that entrepreneurial spirit and that drive that it takes to be successful in not only sales, but just in developing genuine relationships. There's some creativity that comes in that. I think my side of the house is more in the tactical. I'm more involved in the product that we put out and Ryan's creativity is really used more on our internal side, in building the teams and in building the relationships with clients.

So yeah, I think there is some creativity that comes with that entrepreneurial mindset. But man, building that team, it takes convincing people that don't know you from Adam that you're trustworthy and that you're doing it and you're going to continue to do it and you're going to do right by them and you're going to respect the art that they bring to the table. I mean, when you work with the... For maybe some of your listeners, this term creatives is like a bucket of people that wear it as a badge, right? Like, "I'm a creative."

Aaron Ackerman:

Like, "I'm a four." "I'm a four," on it.

Whitney Huffman:

Yes. On an Enneagram.

Aaron Ackerman:

An Enneagram. Yeah.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It comes with a badge of pride, and rightfully so, there's some amazing talent in our city. I think the best of it is sitting in our office, but maybe I'm biased. But you have to honor what those people can bring to the table. When you create something, whether it's in our world, for an advertisement or whatever, it's personal. You can say it's not all day long, but when that was your piece of art that you put your heart and soul into to create for somebody else to go accomplish whatever they're doing, it is personal.

So building those relationships over time with our team and from the get go when they don't know us very well, that was just really an intentional piece of it, I guess, to us, is we're going to build those relationships with clients and perspective clients. But man, it's all for nothing if your team isn't tight-knit and if they don't trust you.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's great. A lot of fields, it's more black and white. Like accounting, the numbers are correct or not correct. There's creativity in running a business and serving clients and building relationships, but some things are regulatory and there's compliance and it just is good or it's right or it's wrong. What you guys created is very subjective. So what's it like when you all have put your heart and soul into something, you're emotionally attached to this project, and you present it and a client's like, "Ehh!"

Ryan Huffman:

That's the hardest thing that we do. I mean, it really is. Whitney faces that more than I face it most, I would assume. But yeah, I mean, it's a tough... You've got to have a thick skin. You've got to have thick skin to do what we do. I think you've got to have thick skin to run any business. That would be my assumption. But in the creative world, in the advertising world, you're right, everything that we do is subjective. So yeah, I mean, it's super tough. It's not easy to hear those things or to get that feedback.

We've been very fortunate we have not had that happen often. If we had that happening a lot, there'd be a problem. And this goes even back to your previous question that Whitney was responding to, but I think they tie together a little bit. I think because of the approach that we take, the creative side of our business is the thing that people see, the creative side of our business is the brand in which we put out there, for not only our clients, but also ourselves. But when you really get down to the nuts and bolts of everything, the foundation in which we work, it's strategy first.

And that strategy comes from our clients and it comes from the relationship we have with our clients. So when our approach is very simple, when our approach is coming and approaching these clients or partners from a consultant point of view, the creative just follows. When we get to know these individuals as not only us by ourselves, but our team as well, a creative is going to be spot on nine times out of 10. At least that's our feeling and that's what we've seen so far.

Sure, there's going to be minor tweaks and edits here and there. And those are the subjective things. But blowing something up and completely starting over, we don't see that often. And really, I don't know that we've ever seen that.

Whitney Huffman:

I'll tell you a story if I can. This creative space, I started out as a video editor. My job was to go shoot video and then edit it and create whatever I was creating that I had sold. So I had this project I was supposed to do for a local jujitsu fighter. Turns out he's one of the most decorated Brazilian jujitsu competitors in the world. I didn't know. And I sure don't know anything about jujitsu. So my job is to create this two-minute piece on his sport, whatever. So I'm like, "Cool. I got a camera, I know how to edit, let me roll out there and boom, boom, boom. I can do it." So I spend two weeks editing this piece and I go to the meeting to show him and he hates it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh yeah.

Whitney Huffman:

And of course, 23-year-old me, I just get in my car and I'm just crushed after this meeting. I mean, he just went shot by shot and hated everything about it. And it was a lot of work for me. I ended up having to redo the whole thing, double my hours in it. I made zero money on it once it was all said and done. Four years later into my sales career, I had a sales director say, "If there's a question that you're too scared to ask, then you never had the sale in the first place."

Those two experiences have, I think, really molded how I help our team develop our creative product. That's why we require that you be so, so invested in what we're doing, because if you're too scared to ask the question, you're never going to understand what the creative of output needs to be. In that example, I didn't know anything about jujitsu and I went and edited that piece. Well, it turns out the shots that I had selected were actually showing... It's like chess, jujitsu is. So the shots that I were showing were actually mistakes. I didn't know and it was because I didn't do the work to ask the question in the beginning.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's a great story. If I can follow up on that, I don't know what the situation was, but the jujitsu guy could have just said, "This sucks. You're fired." But you were given the chance, I guess, to go back, do it again, and then give him whatever he was looking for. Maybe there's a lesson in that as well, which is pretty cool. I always get sucked into American Idol. Is it that one with Simon?

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

I get him confused. Sometimes-

Ryan Huffman:

He's on now though, right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Sometimes, someone will start out with their song or whatever, and they're really nervous and it's not going well and he just stops them and says, "Do you have another song?" Who knows how this all gets edited, but then they do this other song that they weren't prepared to do, it's amazing, they get the standing ovation. I'm always like, "Simon could have just hit the red buzzer and it's over. But he gave them another chance. He saw something in them." I don't know, that's what I was thinking about when you're telling that story. He didn't say, "I hate this. You're done." He said, "I hate this. Try again." Yeah, which is cool.

Whitney Huffman:

It's so true. I mean, if you're not invested in it, then it's, "I hate this. You're done." Right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. And if he said, "I hate this, you're done... " We're not talking about it right now. It's probably not that story.

Whitney Huffman:

It's too far gone anyway. Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right. But it was impactful because you learned something, there was a real growth there. So that's awesome. Okay. Well, let me ask you guys an open question. We've talked a lot about your approach to taking risks, which is really inspiring. So I just want to ask you... You could think about it from a... somebody that taught you about taking a risk, somebody that taught you about leadership or just business. But do you have a person or a moment in your career where you're like, "That was important."?

Aaron Ackerman:

Maybe you knew it at the time or maybe you know it now, a mentor, or maybe it was some boss or co-worker that was terrible and you're like, "Okay, I know how not to do it because of this experience." But anything in your career that was formative about leadership, about risk-taking, any innovation, any of that, something stand out to you, both of you guys?

Ryan Huffman:

I would say for me it was back whenever I was at Griffin. I was way over my head. I was, I believe, 25. I may have been 26 years old and my title was a... I was general manager of the multimedia division of this company or whatnot. There's a guy there, Steve Foerster, vice president, corporate development.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. I love Steve.

Ryan Huffman:

We both know Steve. Steve, to me, what he taught me and what he showed me and what I got from that was how to nurture your employees and your staff. And when you find talent, when you find that skill, how to cultivate that into what it can be. I was nowhere near where I needed to be and I know he knew that. Steve Foerster took me underneath his wing. I mean, I was in meetings with him that I shouldn't have been in. I was there eight o'clock at night sometimes and he was working right there with me on stuff. He could have went home and told me to take care of it. For me, that inspired me.

As my career has moved forward and progressed, I always think about that stuff because you work with a lot of people during the course of your career that have the opportunity to change your path. For me, he did that with me. He instilled a lot of confidence in me. The thing that I learned most, I feel like, from him was that you lead by example. It's not about what you know or what you don't know. When you're in that role, people look to you and they turn to you for confidence, to instill in them. They may not ask that, but that's what they need. He showed me how to do that, I feel like. I feel like there's never been somebody that I learned more from than him.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That's awesome. I could second everything you said. I'm a huge Steve Foerster fan. He always got difficult assignments. Migrating an acquisition in, that stuff is hard. I never saw Steve really get mad or angry or say something that he had to take back later. I mean, he was-

Ryan Huffman:

Levelheaded.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Very much. That's awesome. That's a good one. Whitney?

Whitney Huffman:

I think for me, it was a boss I had really early on in my career. His name's Chris Bradlin. He has stuck with me as a mentor, as an unofficial mentor. I don't think of ever actually said that to him. But he and his wife have been mentors to me since I was probably 20. I tend to be an intense personality. I'm black and white. I'm not going to sugarcoat things for you. It's just like, "Love you, but that was terrible. Let's just do it better." He really showed me how to embrace that part of my personality, but lead with love, loving people first.

So pressing into tough conversations, tough scenarios, things that you'd probably rather not deal with, but doing that really... Yes, to get the end result that you want, but not bulldozing through it, actually loving people as the first priority and then getting whatever it is done as a second priority. So man, huge, huge impact on my life early on and still today.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's awesome. You had, sounds like, a skill already or a trait that most people don't have, which is, "I'm okay confronting this difficult conversation." A lot of people just avoid. You're already like, "Okay, I'm going to enter this space." But then over time, you've learned how to enter that space in a way that keeps everybody intact, right?

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's great. Okay. That's all such good stuff. Thank you, guys. We're coming to the end of our time, and so what I like to do is ask a series of questions that we ask all of our guests. I want to do that now with you guys, is that cool?

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah.

Ryan Huffman:

Let's do it.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right. The first question is, what is the first way you ever made money?

Ryan Huffman:

First way I made money-

Whitney Huffman:

Is this in our business or just at all ever?

Aaron Ackerman:

Just in your life.

Whitney Huffman:

Oh, okay.

Aaron Ackerman:

The first time you did something that you got paid for? What was it? Yeah.

Ryan Huffman:

My first job honestly, Payless Cashways, lumberyard. You remember that place?

Aaron Ackerman:

Uh-huh (affirmative).

Ryan Huffman:

I worked there. I don't remember how long I worked there, but during the school year, I'd work there in the evenings and worked during the summer. Loaded up trucks, worked the paint counter. So I got to see all kinds of stuff. I got to see how that really was working retail and you meet a lot of people.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. This is funny. I think lawn mowing is probably our number one answer, but I think you're the third person I've talked to that worked in a hardware store. So, it's a good-

Ryan Huffman:

Maybe there's something to it.

Aaron Ackerman:

It's a good first job evidently. What about you, Whitney?

Whitney Huffman:

The very first way I made money, I was in the third grade and I would carefully curate these sticker books and I would select these stickers and I would organize them on pages with my friend and then I'd go to school and try to sell them. So I would sell my sticker books to my friends for money.

Aaron Ackerman:

Wow! Okay. So entrepreneur from way back.

Whitney Huffman:

It was terrible.

Ryan Huffman:

Well, now I remember. I used to money beating people in Pog tournaments.

Whitney Huffman:

Oh my God!

Aaron Ackerman:

What is Pog? I don't know what Pog is.

Ryan Huffman:

Pogs-

Whitney Huffman:

What is Pogs? Oh man! You should throw that out on your podcast and see if people know.

Ryan Huffman:

Pogs, they're like the little circle, almost like micro-coaster looking things. They come in the tubes and then you've got slammer.

Whitney Huffman:

Stack them up.

Ryan Huffman:

You stack them.

Whitney Huffman:

Slam them and then you trade them.

Aaron Ackerman:

You were a hustler?

Ryan Huffman:

That's what I just realized as she's saying this. I'm like, "Wait a minute. I was hustling-

Whitney Huffman:

It was a Pog tournament.

Ryan Huffman:

... nine-year-olds out $1 bills in Bridge Creek, Oklahoma.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right. I'm going to have to go Google Pog. It may come back to me.

Whitney Huffman:

It'll blow your mind.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So what would you guys be doing if you weren't running Beyond Theory? And maybe another way to say it is, what did you want to be when you grew up? In a world where you can't fail, what would you be doing? Whitney's smiling. This is going to be good.

Ryan Huffman:

I know what hers is. For me, I always wanted to be a firefighter. That was my dream job. Growing up, I grew up with a house... Well, my whole family essentially. All my uncles were firefighters, generations of firefighters. So I loved it.

Whitney Huffman:

I would have an on, off-season career. Part of the year, I would be a professional downhill speed skier and then the other part of the year I would be a NASCAR driver.

Aaron Ackerman:

Wow!

Whitney Huffman:

Total missed callings on both fronts.

Aaron Ackerman:

So you're a thrill seeker?

Whitney Huffman:

Oh my God! Can you imagine being a NASCAR driver?

Aaron Ackerman:

Have you ever gone to the track and done the fantasy deal where you get to drive the car?

Whitney Huffman:

No. Dream though. No, I have not.

Ryan Huffman:

Bucket list.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So Vegas, it's fun. You can do it.

Whitney Huffman:

You've done it?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. We have a conference in Vegas one year. One of my partners and I went and... Or a couple of partners too. Me and two other guys went to one of those gun ranges where you can rent everything, including grenade launchers. We did all of that. That was fun. The other guy went to the track and did NASCAR. We watched his video and it was amazing. So-

Whitney Huffman:

That's awesome.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. I think I'll try that next time.

Ryan Huffman:

Very cool. Vegas, we're going to have to go.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Probably other places too, but I know I have a buddy that did it there and he loved it. What would you like to go back and tell your 20-year-old self?

Whitney Huffman:

Oh, for me is trust your gut. Trust your gut. If there has ever in life, in business for sure, been something that hasn't turned out the way I've wanted it to or made wrong choices, whatever, I can always trace that back to a gut feeling that I had that I ignored. So man, 20-year-old me, "Trust your gut. Don't second-guess it."

Aaron Ackerman:

Why would you ignore your gut? Just because it's scarier or other people are advising you? What?

Whitney Huffman:

I think it circles around achievement. My personality, I want to win. I want to win, I want to go tackle the big thing, I want to perform, I want to be the best. So probably just taking on some opportunities that seemed like a win to me on the surface, but maybe weren't a long-term win. Like we were talking about earlier, just saying the right no so you can say the right yes. There was some hard, gut-level lessons learned in my 20s that I would've-

Aaron Ackerman:

Good stuff. Trust your gut. You should trust your gut too, Ryan. I'm just saying.

Ryan Huffman:

That is true, trust your gut. For me, if I was to go back and tell my 20-year-old self, I would encourage him to embrace the failures. I think when I look back to when I was 20, I was so caught up in trying not to fail and so caught up in thinking about what I was going to do when I was 24 and 25. Just maybe a better to put it would be to live in the moment a little more. I still to this day give myself that advice.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yep. That's good. I need that advice as well. Okay. What would be the name of your book if your life, all your experiences, the journey you've been on is the content for a book?

Ryan Huffman:

We're going to do this together?

Aaron Ackerman:

And you get to name it, what would your-

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah, do you have one?

Ryan Huffman:

Go for it. I think I know.

Whitney Huffman:

Well, say it.

Ryan Huffman:

Well, no, I think I know what you're going to say.

Whitney Huffman:

Oh, well, say what you think I'm going to say.

Ryan Huffman:

No, because I could be wrong.

Whitney Huffman:

No, just say it.

Aaron Ackerman:

It's okay. This isn't the dating show. You're both winners.

Whitney Huffman:

We're both winners. What is it?

Ryan Huffman:

It's got to do with passion. Passion leads leadership, passion drives leadership.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. Probably something along this line. How fast can you fly?

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh, that's more interesting.

Ryan Huffman:

Well, that was better.

Whitney Huffman:

Same concept.

Ryan Huffman:

I's why I didn't want to open up with what I thought it was.

Whitney Huffman:

Same concept.

Aaron Ackerman:

Say that again.

Whitney Huffman:

How fast can you fly?

Aaron Ackerman:

How fast can you fly? Talk about that just a little bit. What do you mean?

Whitney Huffman:

If you could think it up, there's no reason you can't do it. There's that ambition thing I think that is so important. For me, I always want to hurry and get to the goal. I still have a lot to learn about this in my life, but I think keeping an eye on that ambition while just taking care of the journey on the way there, not overlooking the important parts of the journey for the sake of speed or for the sake of winning or for the sake of the goal. Keeping that insight, but taking care of the journey.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. It's good. Great title. I'd read that. This is the last question. What is the best advice you've ever received?

Ryan Huffman:

Well, that's easy for me. The best advice I ever got... Steve Parham, he was the first one that's ever said this to me. I think I've probably heard it since then. But people don't buy products, people buy people. People purchase people, buy from individuals, I said it earlier, that they like, that they believe in. That was something that when he told that to me and spoke that into me, I have carried that with me ever since. I remember we were on Northwest Expressway, Panera Bread, across the street from INTEGRIS Hospital. He said that and it stuck with me and it couldn't be more true.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So you knew right then, I'm tucking this away?

Ryan Huffman:

Oh, 100%. And it's every single aspect of what we do for a living. Even whenever we're purchasing something now, I'm looking at those individuals, right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Sure.

Ryan Huffman:

Who is it I'm dealing with? Because that's what you're buying. You're not purchasing person, but you're buying into that person. And it was big.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Especially in a service-related business, I think. I tell people all the time, "Clients will do business with people they know, like, and trust.

Ryan Huffman:

You have the option.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Whitney Huffman:

For me, I was about 13. My coach said it, Steve Nunno, he's an Olympic gymnastics coach. He said, "Champions always do one more." It's so simple and I've taken it with me ever since I was a little kid. But I mean, take it to the gym, one more rep. Take it to your marriage, take it to your business, take it to your clients, whatever it is, champions always do one more.

Aaron Ackerman:

Wow! That is awesome. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Just this morning, I saw... Along the same lines. I saw, I guess it was only like two or three weeks ago, Kobe Bryant was giving a speech, who received a lifetime achievement award or something, and he said... The tagline from the speech was because of 4:00 AM. People who are super high achievers are that way because they got up at 4:00 AM and, like you said, they did one more, put in a little extra work. So that's awesome. Great advice. And he obviously knows what he is talking about. He's got a bunch of gold medals.

Whitney Huffman:

Yeah. Got the proof to prove it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Well guys, thank you so much. So, Beyond Theory, you guys do pretty much everything around marketing, ad buying, creative, logos. How would you say it in a sentence?

Ryan Huffman:

People ask all the time, what do we specialize in? For me and us, it's strategy and creative development. If there's anything that you need inside your company from a marketing or advertising standpoint, it should and most likely falls underneath those categories or those verticals. So, strategy and creative development. I mean, we touch on and hit on everything. And like she said earlier, I mean, we're looking to put out the best.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So, best way to find you guys, website, social media? How can people go learn more about Beyond Theory?

Ryan Huffman:

Definitely social media, Facebook, Instagram, website, beyondtheory.us.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for sharing, for being so transparent, sharing the journey of starting Beyond Theory five years ago. Congrats on all the success. This was great, really. Thank you a lot.

Whitney Huffman:

Thank you. Thanks for [inaudible 00:50:44].

Ryan Huffman:

Thanks, Aaron.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play, or Stitcher. This content is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2020, HoganTaylor, LLP. All rights reserved. To view the HoganTaylor general terms and conditions, visit www.hogantaylor.com.