20. Shelley Brander - Loops Productions

Shelley Brander:

At the end of the day, I'm trying to do a lot more than make money from this. I'm trying to make an impact. That's probably the biggest part of my leadership ability is just continually staying connected to what is the why and it guides everything

Robert Wagner:

From Hogan Taylor CPAs and advisors, I'm Robert Wagner and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. Each episode of the show, we sit down with the business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens. Our guest today is Shelley Brander. Shelley is the Founder and CEO of Loops Productions, which is a global brand focused on the yarn and knitting industry. Shelley is also the owner of a retail store in Tulsa, Oklahoma called Loops also focused on knitting. Shelley is a graduate of Texas Christian University, where she studied journalism, advertising and public relations. Shelley, welcome to the How That Happened Podcast.

Shelley Brander:

Thank you so much for having me. [crosstalk 00:01:08] to be here.

Robert Wagner:

We're thrilled to have you. It's really exciting. So Shelley, in the introduction, I avoided trying to describe in detail what Loops is and what Knit Stars is. So why don't we just start right there. Can you describe those businesses for us?

Shelley Brander:

Sure, so Loops started 15 years ago. I knit since I was 16 years old and I always had a dream of opening a more modern yarn store that was more geared towards the busy knitter or crochet and a more fashion forward, more youthful vibe. So yeah, that's how it started. And the original goal was actually to franchise because I was unaware and I still don't think there's any franchise of a knitting or a crochet or yarn store chain. And so that was the original plan, but life changes along the way. And we started growing online. We tried opening a second store, it went okay, but our true growth didn't really explode until we really leaned into the online space. So-

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So that's a good segue into... I did research and I did what everybody does. I went to Wikipedia about knitting. So this is an ancient art form. Goes back to the 11th century, maybe further back they said, right?

Shelley Brander:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Robert Wagner:

And it goes through all these various cycles and then more modern day in the 50s and 60s. This was taught, I assume it was part of home ec, it was taught in public schools in this country. It waynes in the 80s and 90s as clothes become less expensive and just, I guess, falls out of favor. But then the internet comes along and it seemingly revives this ancient art form. I mean, that's not the disruption that normally happens with the internet, so.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, I think it's part of the, overall, the more digital we become, the more focused we are on... We're on our phones and everything is so fast, there's a concurrent movement that's happening at the same time called the Slow Movement. So this applies, not just in knitting, but to a lot of crafts, modern calligraphy, quilting, wood burning, everything. So I think people are looking very specifically to slow down intentionally use their hands. And then at the same time you have this sort of the fast fashion and the backlash against that.

And so there's definitely a part of society. I mean, my 18 year old daughter is all about, she's sworn off fast fashion and she's either going to thrift it or she's going to make it. And so there's that, there's Hollywood's. There's been well known Hollywood stars that have knit and crocheted for years and years and that's really elevated the profile. And then the designers, the runway designers know that this trend is happening and they know they need to at least look like they're doing this low fashion thing.

So for example, I just saw, oh, one of the huge runway brands. I can't remember which one, maybe Marc Jacobs just came out with a whole line of it's knitted purses, hand knit purses is the new look and they're these as opposed to leather and there's a lot of vegan backlash on that. And so they're knit purses. So there's a whole lot of forces at work here. But I think at the core, we're looking for ways to slow down, to connect with other people and to have something really real, the thing you can have in your hands, so.

Robert Wagner:

So confluence of things happening here.

Shelley Brander:

Many things, yes.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, so I guess, Google deeper into what Knit Stars is. I mean, I looked at the website and there's these... You've done four seasons at this point. So explain what is a season and what does it look like if I'm participating in it?

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, so Knit Stars started about five years ago and actually the impetus for it was that I knew there were these knitting celebrities, these amazing knitting teachers who could teach really cool workshops, but you had to go to New York or go overseas to get into them. And then if you did get into one of them, it was like, maybe you got to learn from one teacher. And then if you sat through a workshop, then how much of that do you retain? Maybe 5% if you're lucky, right?

Robert Wagner:

Right.

Shelley Brander:

A really good note taker. And so I kept trying to get these celebrities to come to Tulsa and teach in my store, but getting these people to come to Tulsa was a little bit of a challenge. And so that was always a frustration for me because I knew how much it could move somebody's knitting and crochet forward, how excited people can get when they learn from the best and I knew how hard it was, how inaccessible it was. And so I was actually approached by a woman who'd done something similar in the modern calligraphy space. And she and I partnered together and did the first season of Knit Stars. And so what it is is you pay a set price, you're buying a seat to the workshop or to the series of workshops and then you basically get 10 workshops. So if you've ever heard of masterclass. Are you familiar?

Robert Wagner:

Sure.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, they're deeply funded by venture capitalist, right?

Robert Wagner:

Right.

Shelley Brander:

So you see their ads in your Facebook feed all the time, but we started before that actually. And it's like that idea, but instead of getting like, oh, it's gymnastics this week and it's filmmaking this week and all the subjects are all over the board and there's typically just one person teaching, excuse me, with this, you're buying 10 different workshops with 10 different experts in the thing that you're really into. And so people buy a seat and then it's all online. And then we roll out workshops one by one over a period of several weeks.

So they're like knitting instructional, but they're really, really high quality. And one of the big differentiators is I was like, "I don't want to just have them make a video and put their iPhone up and make their own videos, I want to send my production crew there." I have a background in branding and production. And that's like telling stories is my favorite thing and getting to know people and pulling out their stories. So I'm like, let's take our own crew and that way we can, there's this voyeuristic aspect, we can show people what these designers are really like and show their lives and create a true connection so people feel like they really know them as opposed to just a name on a pattern.

You used to know the designers, there's just a name on a pattern. You didn't know about them. And so it was really great because that first season, we had some really well known people, Knit Stars. And then we had some people that it was like, I came for this person, but then I discovered this person. So we realized the power of the collaboration of having 10 different stars each season could be discovered. And along the way, we could really raise up the whole industry because we're giving exposure to so many different stars. They're all collaborating in the effort to get people on board. And we're knitting a lot of the same things and it just really exploded from the first season. We knew we'd hit a nerve, yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So you already touched on something I was going to ask about. So there are knitting celebrities. I mean, who are these folks?

It is a real thing. It's not an oxymoron. Yeah, for the most part, they are pattern designers. So it's just they come up with a pattern like a sweater or a shell or whatever and they sell just the pattern. And because of some newer platforms that have come a long in the last decade, there's one in particular called Ravelry where a designer for almost nothing can put a pattern up on the website and people can buy it as a single download.

And people have made really good livings. They've been able to leave their day job and make really great livings doing that. So a lot of these people are designers. We also have dyers. So there's indie yarn dyers. There's yarn that's machine dyed in big factories. And then there's a cottage industry that's really exploded of indie dyers. So people that are fiber artisans basically.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, and so people are always really curious about them. We've had, there's knitting magazines. So we'll have people that design and create knitting magazines. It's just anybody, who's a thought leader, designer, fiber artists, somebody that people are talking about, people that are doing really interesting work in size inclusivity. There's a lot of work right now in this space to make things more diverse and inclusive and people are doing some really cool work that way. And actually that's going to be a big part of our upcoming season. Our theme this next year is knit the world together and we're going to be going to Japan and Europe and all points across North America this year. So I'm pretty excited.

Robert Wagner:

That's exciting.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So if I'm a knitting celebrity and I guess, what's in it for me? It just helps build my brand obviously and-

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, there's a lot in it for you. I mean, the biggest thing these days, everybody's looking for followers and eyeballs, right?

Robert Wagner:

Right.

Shelley Brander:

But it's annoying in a lot of spaces. People will ask... People go to a designer. It's a pain point for a lot of the designers. They're like, "Oh, well, you design a pattern for my magazine. It'll give you so much exposure." And it's like, "Well, how much money's in it?" It's like, well, but the structure we have is an affiliate based system. And we are one of the first, if not the first to introduce that in the knitting world. And it really gives the potential for them to do really, really well financially.

And that's actually something that means a lot to me because designers and the top people in our business are paid barely enough to survive. In many cases, they have to keep two or three jobs. And so it's a crazy... Because there's so much free material in the knitting world, there has been for so long, it's been hard to raise the understanding and the value proposition of what goes into this process. I mean, designing a good pattern, it can take months and months and months. And then you have to find test knitters and test out all the sizes.

And there's so many different skill sets, designing, photography, test editing, so many things. And then people feel like they have to give it away for free or people are mad if they don't get it for free. And it's like, but they're making a living. So that's a big part of what we do is to try to elevate... I mean, when we first came out that first year with a price point that was $200 to watch knitting videos, that was pretty hard to explain to people and especially since we hadn't produced it yet, right?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

But we found a way. And when we opened up the cart for that first season, we thought it was going to be really popular maybe in the US and maybe North America, but we really didn't foresee the global aspect. And the first person who signed up when we opened the cart up was from Singapore and the last person, we did a one week launch, the last person was from Dubai.

Robert Wagner:

Oh wow.

Shelley Brander:

And we said, hmm-

Robert Wagner:

Got something.

Shelley Brander:

... I think we're onto something here. And in the US, we can just be so US-centric we don't realize. As hard as it was for me to access some of these people, at least I had a shot being in the United States. I didn't have to take an international flight. And it has opened it up so much, not only for people to have access to that, to the best teaching, but also to connect this worldwide Knit Stars community and our private Facebook group has sprung up. And it's so, so cool to see people connecting. And then we hear about they're in airports, they're in Heathrow or whatever and they run into another Knit Stars person. You hear those stories all the time. They're knitting in the airports and oh yeah, I remember you from Knit Stars, pretty cool.

Robert Wagner:

That's very cool.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So you hit on this a second ago around, and we talked, before we started recording, we talked a little about production and how you're going about that. And you just mentioned the $200 price. I guess, talk more about that because when I saw that, it struck me as is the target customer going to appreciate the production quality as much or enough to afford or to pay that price? I guess, I'm not stating that very well, but is there a mismatch there? But you've made it work obviously, so.

Shelley Brander:

I mean, to be honest, because I have a lot of friends that do these events. Now I have a network and I'm in a mastermind group with a lot of entrepreneurs from around the world. And they're shocked at how low my price is. Our price is extremely low for what it is. In most niches, it would be anywhere probably at least 4.97. It's the going rate up to nine. I mean, $1,000. I mean, I personally have bought a bunch of online courses that are a couple thousand plus, but it works out.

And at the end of the day, I'm trying to do a lot more than make money from this. I'm trying to make an impact. And so for me, it's better to have the lower price point and have it more accessible for more people to join in. And then over time, we've started to try to test out some different models. We make maybe one course available at a $97 price point. And we tried that last year and it worked really well.

So we put out free content as part of the launch process so that even if people can't afford it or don't have money right now to do it, they get some free good content and so they get something out of it regardless. So we want everybody who comes into contact with the Knit Stars materials to be able to walk away with some inspiration and maybe a pattern or two whether or not. We have had a lot of people who've come into our world, watched the free stuff and then maybe three years later finally save up or are able to watch one of the big to really participate in the workshop. So-

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Very cool. You may not want to answer this, but can you give us an idea, I guess, how the subscriptions have grown? Or you don't call it subscriptions, but how the fan base has grown, I guess?

Shelley Brander:

Oh yeah, I can... Yeah, so that first year, we had about 2,000 people sign up. And at this point, we have over... Just this past year, we crossed the 10,000 mark of... We have 10,000 Knit Stars owners is what we call them. They don't all own every single season, but most of them, it is just continued to grow. And so we offer the previous seasons in little spurts here and there. And once you own all the seasons, you're an all-star. And we have special content and special features for the all-stars. And there's quite a number of those too. So a lot of people have bought every year and are very excited for the next season, so.

Robert Wagner:

That's very exciting.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Congratulations on that.

Shelley Brander:

Thanks.

Robert Wagner:

That's awesome.

Shelley Brander:

They actually will do an offering. For example, last year, after we finished Knit Star's 4.0, we will offer to everybody who participated in 4.0 to buy the next year's season. Site unseen, so they don't know who the teachers are going to be. They don't know when it's going to be. They don't know where we're going and they buy it. And huge number just immediately turn around and buy the next season. So that's a pretty big endorsement I think.

Robert Wagner:

Exactly.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, so going by back to the Knit Stars, the celebrities, if you will and the production piece, are these folks, are they typically already comfortable with the camera and the whole thing or do you have a TED talk process of preparing folks with this?

Shelley Brander:

Oh yeah, that's funny you say that one, because I'm doing a TED talk at University of Tulsa in April and two, because we've been really working on this because no, for the most part, they have not been on video. They maybe have done a little bit of tutorial work on camera, but for the most part, not. Now we've had a couple that are big YouTube stars and that's their main thing, but they still don't understand necessarily why do we only offer this a couple times a year? What's this launch process we use?

So we're working on a longer onboarding process to bring them up to speed. And actually as we go along, if they want it, I give them some coaching in general on marketing. And we look at all the ways that they market and what other ways. For instance, these days, a lot of people are running their whole business off of Instagram or Facebook, which is not a great idea because you do not own Instagram or Facebook.

So I still believe email is the best to be, deliverability challenges aside, it's the best place because it's the most intimate and personal place. So if somebody lets you into their email, they're saying something to you. And so I really encourage everybody to convert their Instagram. It's great, you got 100,000 Instagram followers, but how many people are on your email list? I just feel like it's an insurance policy against all the crazy things that could happen when it's not your platform, so.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, are you turning folks away, Knit Star wannabes?

Shelley Brander:

I wouldn't say turn them away. We have a really specific... Well, okay, every year, we survey our members to ask them who they want to see in the next Knit Stars and what topics they'd like to see covered. So we pay a lot of attention to that. We've started to try to have more of a theme each year. So like I said, this year, it's knit the world together. So it's like, do you fit the theme? It's all about the mix. And we try to find different stars that have different strengths.

Some that have huge following, some that are not very well known. So it'll be a new discovery for you as the owner. So it's a pretty complicated and mostly intuitive process that I use for that. We have had... I've heard that there are a bunch who would really like to be part of it. And I take that into consideration because of course that's great to know that they're motivated, but it's really more about the mix and the theme for each year. And people have asked me, where you'll ever run out and no, I do not. There are plenty.

Robert Wagner:

Is there a mix of, if I'm a customer of yours, is there a mix of, wow, that person's incredible, I could never do that and I can see myself as that person? Is there all of those combined?

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, the way we like to say, well, we like to have each one of the Knit Stars start at more of a beginner level in the workshop. And then as the modules progress, they get more complicated, but there definitely are some that are going to appeal more to the super advanced knitter and some that'll be more accessible for everybody. But the thing is that they own these classes. So it's very, very, we say inspirational and aspirational because once you own the class, it's like, okay, you're not there yet, but you now get it. You can watch it, you can absorb it and you're going to get there.

So through the continual pushing the envelope and just learning something a little different every project you take on, you're going to get there. And I've always said, I mean, the very first thing I ever made was a cabled sweater and it's because I didn't know you could make a basic scarf. If you want to make it and you're really excited about it, you can make. You mentioned earlier, they used to teach it in school. They still do in Germany. Every five year old in Germany knows how to knit.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

So I just think it's like computers. Sometimes we bring our own anxieties and concerns that don't... It's really your hands can do this. You just have to relax, so.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, so before we turn to a little different spot, I got to ask this question. So you've mentioned knitting and crocheting in the same sentence a couple of times. So is it knitting and crocheting or is it knitting versus crocheting?

Shelley Brander:

Well, that depends on who you ask. I prefer that it's both. We say, we want everybody to be bistitchual. That's how-

Robert Wagner:

Excellent.

Shelley Brander:

It's yarn. It's yarn lovers, it's makers, it's fiber lovers. I mean, it is Knit Stars and the main emphasis is on knitting, but we have had quite a number of crochet stars and we're trying to integrated more with each season. So yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, you took my question really serious. That's good.

Shelley Brander:

It's a very serious topic in my industry.

Robert Wagner:

Well, I wondered if there was some snobbery that went along with it.

Shelley Brander:

There's a lot of perceived-

Robert Wagner:

Different camps and people.

Shelley Brander:

For sure. There's a lot of perceived snobbery. In the US, there's something like three times as many crotcheyers as knitters. So for me personally, I think it's whatever you learned first. If you learned crochet from your grandma when you were five years old, that's what you should start with because you have muscle memory built up. I think it's easier to make knitting look like crochet and it's harder to make crochet look like knitting. But other than that, I embrace them both, yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, that's excellent. So let's pivot to you a little bit. So how have you grown as a leader during this time?

Shelley Brander:

Mmm, that's a great one. I have had more leadership growth in the last six months than I've had my whole career combined and that's because I started out in advertising, so I worked as a copywriter and broadcast producer. I didn't manage anybody. Then I started my own business and I worked with partners like broadcast production companies and printers and things, but I never had a direct report other than we would have a bookkeeper on staff.

And my sister worked for me for a while, but I had no leadership training at all in school or anything else. And as my team has grown through the years, it started out as ladies who came to work and saw yarn in a store. And now it's launch managers and systems managers and project managers. And it's a very different business now. I've got somewhere between 25 and 30 employees including a lot of contractors that are outside of Tulsa.

So as part of that, this year, I've been lucky enough to, I have a leadership coach and she works with key members of my team so that we can all work together. Leadership principles and the ability to emotionally regulate and work as a team is very new for me at 52 years old. And it has been. In fact just today, I did performance coaching with one of my key leaders. And that to me always before was terrifying. The thought of giving somebody a review sounded so corporate and gross and I would never want to do that.

But once I really had a good structure for it and I was able to realize how much it was going to help both her and I. Once I got clarity around what we were going for and I was able to sit and talk through it with her in a really clear way, it was amazing. I mean, we're both just so happy at the end of the hour. So leadership, I actually had a friend say to me at one point, well, it was my leadership coach because I said, "Well, do I want to keep doing this store forever?" Because Knit Stars is a huge success and I could just close everything down and just do Knit Stars.

She said, "You could, but I think you're really going to enjoy the leadership growth that you're going to have in this process. You're really going to enjoy the process and you're going to help build a team." And it's really rewarding to have people working with you that love their jobs and are making a living at it. And it has been. It's been a really pleasant surprise for me. I love it, so.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, that's very cool, very cool.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So just maybe just a little bit more on that. So you have a leadership coach. So what other things are you doing? You mentioned mastermind earlier. What other things are you doing to grow was a leader?

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, and so I read books like crazy. I am so fortunate really this group that I've gotten into, I somehow lucked into the world's best mastermind literally. And I am by far the only yarn person. What's interesting about it is I think a lot of people aspire to be in the is particular mastermind just for the business ideas and for the dollars. And there's certainly tactics that come out of every time we meet, but it really has become more of a family and you get together with other entrepreneurs that talk the same language.

We usually end up talking much more about life balance and team building and leadership than we do about dollars and cents and tactics. So I do that. I go to those meetings several times a year. I read constantly. I listen to a lot of audio books on planes and things. And I've been reading autobiographies lately. Shoe Dog by the Nike guy, I'm reading right now. I just finished writing my first, well, it'll be my second book, but it's my first real published book. And it's actually a memoir/business book.

And so that's what I've been into lately. Just the stories behind what made them decide to become an entrepreneur. There was a really interesting podcast, Masters of Scale Podcast. I don't know if you're familiar? It's Reid Hoffman LinkedIn. He did one with Gwyneth Paltrow and I thought it was really fascinating to hear her talk about how rewarding it's been to go, her intentional choice to go from being this Hollywood star to...

I just always thought, oh, well, it was easy for her to have a company because she was a Hollywood star. But to hear her talk about her why of why she decided to do that, I just find that endlessly fascinating because there's just a certain point where it's really not about money anymore, it's so much more about impact. And I just love to hear people talk about how and why they got there, so.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, money will not get most people out of bed in the morning.

Shelley Brander:

Nope.

Robert Wagner:

It's got to be something else, yeah.

Shelley Brander:

And actually a lot of people have like, oh, I want to have an eight figure, nine figure business. And I've actually sat in a room with people that had just achieved that moment and it's a very empty moment unless it's attached. I mean, they struggle unless it's attached to real meaning. You really feel like you're making a difference. And so that's probably the biggest part of my leadership ability is just continually staying connected to what is the why. And it helps you, it guides everything. What choices you make, what tactics you pursue, how you grow your team. It's everything for us, so.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So this is probably a good segue into a question I wanted to ask you. And in your LinkedIn profile, it talks about that one of your strengths is growing empathetic and authentic brands. Actually it says empathetic, authentic brands.

Shelley Brander:

Yep.

Robert Wagner:

Can you unpack that for us?

Shelley Brander:

Sure.

Robert Wagner:

What's an empathetic brand?

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, I think there's a shift particularly in the info space. We've seen a shift in online businesses from... In the early days, it was the wild west and there was a bro marketing culture. It was a very heavy handed, fast moving, I don't want to name names, but you can probably think of a few names associated with that. And I think there's a shift now to a more feminine, I'm not saying female necessarily, but feminine approach that's more intuition and empathy-based.

And we're seeing more and more about that with leadership. Brene Brown, one of the key leadership voices of our time right now. It's all about empathy, very empathy-based. Oh, one of my earliest memories and I share it in my book was when I was, my dad gave me an empathy lesson and I came home from school. I think it was, well, it's not one of my earliest memories, but I was maybe in late elementary school. And some girl had done some mean girl thing and I was so upset. And so I felt like it was so unjust and I'd just been so wronged and I couldn't believe it.

And he sat me down and he made me close my eyes and imagine. He said, "Close your eyes and imagine you're her." And I was like... He's like, "No, really. You have to close your eyes," and he said, "I want you to picture yourself in her body." And my dad's an attorney. He's not some woo-woo guy. And he's like, "Picture..." And he made me take a moment. I remember very clearly imagining that I was her and then replaying, he said, "Replay the whole story of what happened, but you're in her shoes."

And I did that and I was like, "Whoa, okay, I see where she's coming from." And I think that exercise really stuck with me and it underscored everything we did in our branding business. It was what became our hallmark was telling these stories with a very empathetic ear and a lot of testimonial based things where you have to really pause and understand where they're coming from.

It helped me with my copywriting just being able to really put yourself in the customer's shoes, which sounds very tripe, but there's definite art to it where it's not manipulative where you're really feeling from their perspective. And it's what drove me to open Loops because I had had not pleasant experiences in yarn stores and I just wanted to be able to create a community that that people would feel cared for and appreciated and understood in what is typically a little bit of a weird or quirky hobby.

And I didn't have that growing up. I wanted to offer that to people. So it's funny because I've just always done this naturally. It's just how I've approached it because of the lesson my dad taught me, but I hear more and more and more. And in fact a lot of the men in my mastermind are working on becoming more empathetic in how they approach their marketing. There's a shift happening because the consumer doesn't want to be sold to, they want to be understood, so.

Robert Wagner:

Right.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, I think across the board, consumers, producers, business people, they're wanting to connect with people in some way, something that's meaningful more than just the product, more than the profit, all of those things. So that fits in there.

Shelley Brander:

Yep.

Robert Wagner:

So I guess, maybe tagging onto that a little bit. So you've written a book, so I'm excited you're writing another book, but you wrote a book already called Untangled: A step-by-step guide to joy and success for the modern yarn lover. And so yeah, I just read the reviews and its-

Shelley Brander:

You did a lot of research.

Robert Wagner:

.... some of the comments and stuff. I guess, what struck me is the emotional aspect that you were trying to address in the book. And I did relate to it, I guess, on one level because you mentioned, or at least the review talked about DIY type things. I mean, I got a list of projects that aren't done. It does weigh on me and I got supplies bought for some of them that weighs on me.

Shelley Brander:

Yes.

Robert Wagner:

So tell us about that. What were you trying to address there?

Shelley Brander:

We spend a lot of time trying to help people release that guilt. In our world, it's stash guilt is what they call. You have stash of yarn under every bin, under every bed and everything and it's unfinished projects or what we call whips works in progress. And the guilt becomes so great that then people go on a yarn diet. And then it's like they can't enjoy the process. And I mean, this is times a thousand if you have a more expensive hobby. If you're, I mean, collecting cars or whatever.

But what I tell people is if you think about it, the clothes in your closet, just statistically, you wear maybe 10% of it. You don't go around feeling terribly guilty that you don't wear every pair of shoes in your closet. But there's something about craft because, or your creative side or your hobby that there's something about, even just participating in it. We feel guilty about taking 15 minutes to sit down and do it. And I think it's the pressure of society to constantly produce, produce, produce goals, goals, goals.

It's like, where is it in your planner for today to sit down and do the thing that you really love to do? We feel guilty about it. So we spend a lot of our time explaining to people the benefits of spending time in your hobby every day. And that you're going to be when you spend... If you sit for an hour with that thing that you love to do, whatever it might be, you're a much better wife, mother, husband, brother, sister, worker, student and everything. It quality of life, right?

Robert Wagner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Shelley Brander:

But there's something about when you amass things as part of your hobby, there's even more guilt attached to it. So we just try to help people understand like it's okay to make a cool display out of the yarn that you're not using right now so you can enjoy it when you walk by it or put your needles in a vase or create a space for yourself to do this. You don't have to sneak off in the corner and cram in a few rows. And just empowering them to know what to say to your husband. When you come home with that bag of yarn, he's like, "But have you made everything in the..." But, but, but.

Robert Wagner:

Right, yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Its like-

Robert Wagner:

Oh, there's a nag factor for sure.

Shelley Brander:

For sure.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

And so we just really work to help people be empowered with that because you really are. I mean, the more enlightened spouses that I've seen are like, "Yes, please go to the yarn story because you're so happy when you have a new skate of yarn. You're more fun to be around. Please, you seem like you're having a rough day. Why don't you go knit a little bit?" I mean, that thing, encouraging each other to spend time in the thing that we love builds better connections with the community, but also with each other. So in relationships.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, so I mean, this podcast is about you, not about me, but my wife has globbed onto this group called The Pencil Grannys and it's part of supporting operation Christmas child. The shoe boxes, the Christmas-

Shelley Brander:

Oh yeah, that so cool, yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So there's a whole industry around making sure those boxes are full, topping them off, how to pack things in the most compact way. Oh, my wife is totally into that.

Shelley Brander:

That's very cool.

Robert Wagner:

And thank goodness, there's a room upstairs that's now devoted to this like a lot of people's knitting rooms, right?

Shelley Brander:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Robert Wagner:

And I have to catch myself say, "Hey, you know what? This is making her very, very happy and it's okay."

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, and look at that, that's got a builtin charity component. I mean, you're doing straight up good for the world, right?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

It's not just for what you're going to wear. I mean, you're doing strip, but we just still struggle with that. I think we all feel like if we're not like building widgets, somehow we're not being productive people. Creativity is, as they say, creativity is the new currency. I mean, eventually the bots are going to be able to do a lot of our stuff, but they can't do the creativity. So I think you're going to see more and more value placed on it.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Okay, I want to give you a chance to tell us about the retail store and about loops.com.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, so-

Robert Wagner:

Or it's LoveLoops.

Shelley Brander:

Oh, LoopsLove.

Robert Wagner:

LoopsLove.

Shelley Brander:

Loopslove.com, yeah. So our retail store, for people that are in Tulsa are really statewide. We have a lot of people that come from Arkansas and from the city. It's at 61st in Yale. It's a very big and beautiful yarn store. I think it's the pretty one on... I haven't seen a better one. So we carry all ranges of yarn affordable to luxury and everything in between, lots of exclusive stuff and lots of our own designs. And the biggest thing is that our staff is awesome and the Loops Troops we call them and they really take care of everybody. And it's like very white glove service levels.

And then our website is loopslove.com. We have a free newsletter that goes out every week called Loops Scoop. And that has a very large following worldwide. And only recently have we started to cross market, Knit Stars and Loops tell Knit Stars that Loops exist and such. And then we do have a membership called LoopsClub that was my original online product. We send out special luxury kits four times a year that we curate, but those are optional.

It's really more about month to month support and community and connection. And more than anything else, helping people realize where they are on, we call it the LoopsClub Success Path, but puts them structure to their knitting journey. So you're not just always just feeling like you're flying by the seat of your pants and identify where you are and where you can go and then surround yourself with other people and lots of fun stuff going on to help them stay excited about the projects they're working on. And that's $19 a month.

We just closed it. We have been it four times a year. We used to have two different clubs, we combine them recently and that's been really a big win for us. So yeah, that is our primary membership. There's a website loopsmembers.com that's for members of the club. So those are our three primary. We have the store, we have loopslove.com, which is just like, it's an e-commerce site, but it's what we're known for on trend, effortless luxury yarns. And then this membership LoopsClub together and Knit Stars.

Robert Wagner:

Awesome.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Gosh, there's a tangent I want to go on there because there's a theme it seems like that there's in your marketing and your brand of exclusivity. Is that accurate or-

Shelley Brander:

Well-

Robert Wagner:

... I guess, I'm just getting at you. You open things up and then you close. I'm like-

Shelley Brander:

Oh, yes, I know what you're saying. I was going to say I'm really into inclusivity, but luxury and more time sensitive or urgency, right?

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

I would say-

Robert Wagner:

... That's better.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, and the reason for that part of it is the whole launch model, which is what originally what I started with, then Knit Stars wouldn't exist without it. There's a guy Jeff Walker who teaches something that, he has a book called Launch and he teaches an online course, the first one I ever took called Product Launch Formula. And we applied that formula and came up with the club idea and everything just exploded after that. So part of that whole idea is when Hollywood comes out with a new movie, they don't just like send out an email about it every week. There's a whole lead up.

There's a whole on-ramp. There's all these trailers and they're building up this date. And then on the big date, they open and there's all the reviews and everything. And that's a process. And there's a lot of fun and excitement around an event type thing. So it's event-based marketing for online stuff. And so that's worked really well for us. The other great thing about it by offering things in waves like that, it lets our team breathe a little bit in between big initiatives.

Not much, they would probably say. I mean, I'm at warp speed and they're trying to stay there with me, but that's why we do this launch-based marketing. And yeah, I into exclusives in the sense of I like to carry things in the store that they can't get everywhere else. And as a small retailer, I can't compete with Amazon and I can't compete on price. So we're more about finding really unique fibers and working with really different dyers and putting projects together in a different cool way and curating it so it's easy for people to grab and go.

Yeah, so that's been part of us from the beginning. We have a thing called the Hot Loops Wall. Because I used to get so frustrated going in into yard stores and I would spend hours and I wouldn't get any help and I would not be able to find anything too cute and I would leave frustrated and empty handed. And so I'm like, I'm going to have a wall that you can just walk up to. You see a great picture of the project. The yarn is right there, the pattern is right there. You just grab the color you like and you're out the door and getting to the knitting instead of just... I mean, the shopping's fun. We all like buying stuff, but I want to get them to the knitting. So-

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, so.

Robert Wagner:

Very cool.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Well, Shelley, we're coming to the close of our time together, but we have five questions that we ask every guest.

Shelley Brander:

Oh good, okay.

Robert Wagner:

I don't think I've warned you of that, but-

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, oh, sneaky.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, so are you ready?

Shelley Brander:

I'm ready.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, so what was the first way you made money?

Shelley Brander:

The first way I made money, my very first job, I worked for the Tulsa World in the morgue, the Tulsa World newspaper. And the morgue, it was where they kept cooking files and I would bring those file down to the reporter each day. And that's when I decided I didn't want to be a journalist.

Robert Wagner:

And that job no longer exists.

Shelley Brander:

It does not.

Robert Wagner:

Right. Okay, so if you were not running Knit Stars and Loops and all the other things you're doing, what do you think you would be doing?

Shelley Brander:

If I wasn't writing, I would say writing books, but I'd probably be doing motivational speaking on making your business more empathetic.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

I mean, I used to be terrified of public speaking until I think, yeah, just this past year, I did my... And I'm falling in love with it.

Robert Wagner:

You hooked on it.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, I mean, it's just really I can see the potential to impact a lot of people in a short amount of time.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, and I've been very impacted personally by speakers and TED talks and things. So I want to do my part.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, what would you tell your 20 year old self?

Shelley Brander:

Oh, I should have listened to other interviews. I would've been prepared for this. What would I tell my 20 year old self? It's all going to be okay. I would probably say maybe you don't need to do this ad business as long as you think you do.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

I stayed in that longer than I probably should have. I knew that I wanted to do something different about 10 years into my career, so.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So you may not want to answer this question yet or hopefully you'll be happy to, but we always ask, what will the title of your book be?

Shelley Brander:

I think I can tell you. We literally just decided it a couple days ago and it's going to be published by Hay House, distributed by Random House. I'm very excited to work with them. I think I'm allowed to say it. It's going to be called Move the Needle: Yarns from an Unlikely Entrepreneur.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, awesome.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, you like it?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Shelley Brander:

Okay.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, that's great.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Shelley Brander:

Mmm, besides the empathy lesson for my dad?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, you've already told a great story.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah, oh boy. One of the earliest people that worked at Loops, who's still a friend gave me the best parenting advice and parenting's probably my number one hardest and best job. I've got three kids. And she just said, "Always keep them talking." She said, "Even when they're telling you stuff you don't want to hear, always keep them talking." And that has served me well because there are a lot of times you just want to cover your ears and say, "No, no, no, no, no." But I think it's made for a really close relationship with my kids. And I think about that all the time.

Robert Wagner:

That's great.

Shelley Brander:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

That's a whole new twist that we ever had on previous guest.

Shelley Brander:

Oh, good.

Robert Wagner:

That's really, really good.

Shelley Brander:

All right.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, Shelley, your book's available on Amazon. So that's Untangled: A step-by-step guide to joy and success for the modern yarn lover. So you can find it there. So where else can we get ahold of you?

Shelley Brander:

My website, loopslove.com is probably the easiest way. People can just walk in the store too. Yeah, we have a Facebook page for Loops. Loops, it's just facebook.com/loops. And we've got LoopsLove on Instagram. We're very active on Instagram. And yeah, those are our main channels right now. So we're working to grow. But YouTube, we're working on it.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, all right.

Shelley Brander:

Yep.

Robert Wagner:

Well, thanks very much for being a guest with us today.

Shelley Brander:

Thank you. This is fun.

Robert Wagner:

Thank you. That's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play or Stitcher. Thanks for listening. This content is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2020, Hogan Taylor LLP, all rights reserved. To view the Hogan Taylor general terms and conditions, visit www.hogantaylor.com.