27. Richard Zahn - RLZ Consulting

Richard Zahn:

I really believe you build businesses from the outside, in. You build it by knowing who your customer is, and knowing what they need and what they want, and finding a way to take care of that.

Aaron Ackerman:

From HoganTaylor, I'm Aaron Ackerman and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. On each episode of the show we sit down with business and community leaders behind thriving organizations, to learn how business and innovation success actually happens.

Welcome back to another episode of How That Happened, and joining me on the podcast today is my friend Richard Zahn. Richard received his Bachelors of Science from Yale University, graduating with honors, and after that spent some time as an officer in the United States Navy Supply Corps, and then subsequently received a masters, an MBA from Stanford University. And I think shortly after that, Richard, you came back to your hometown of Oklahoma City.

And since then he's done many, many things, worked in family business, he's been a CEO several times over, is now a consultant to lots of startups and a variety of companies, sits on boards. And I'm sure that doesn't begin to do your career justice, Richard, but thank you very much for joining. Anything you would want to add to that thumbnail bio there?

Richard Zahn:

No, I think you hit the highlights. I did start right out of graduate school, one thing that kind of became interesting in hindsight, I went to work for a bank in Chicago, called Continental Illinois National Bank, which nobody knew of until the Penn Square days. So I went there before I came, then came back to Oklahoma City. We've been back here since, for over 40 years.

Aaron Ackerman:

Richard and I... I think originally, Richard, we probably met at OVF, Oklahoma Venture Forum, which is an association or an organization that really is just to support entrepreneurs and the entrepreneurial system in Oklahoma and Oklahoma City. And I know you've been involved with that organization for a long time. I was trying to figure out when we first met, and I think it maybe was through that association.

Richard Zahn:

Yeah, I think that's where it would have been.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well, again, thanks for your time today. I'm excited to talk to you. And one thing that a lot of our listeners, especially kind of in this region, in our markets that we work in, they're my age or older, they're probably familiar with the department store Anthony's, which was started by your family. Correct?

Richard Zahn:

Correct, my grandfather.

Aaron Ackerman:

Your grandfather is C. R. Anthony. If I've got my facts right here, Richard, he started the company in '22, 1922, with maybe about $10,000 of clothing that he rounded up from the family as inventory, in Cushing, Oklahoma, I think.

Richard Zahn:

Cushing was the first store. You're right.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, store number one there. So then over, I guess the next 75 years or so, the company was operated mostly by family members, and at its height grew to, I guess if I've got my numbers right here, 320 or maybe more than 320 stores in 21 states, went through a reorganization process in the early '90s, about '91, and then eventually sold to the Houston-based company Stage Department Stores in 1997.

I've heard you talk about it before Richard, but maybe talk a little bit about, just from your perspective, that family business. You were certainly aware of it and probably worked in it multiple times throughout your life. How did that get started? What was your role as a youngster, or even when you came back after going to school and spending time in the military? I've heard some fantastic stories you've told before about Anthony's, but maybe talk just a little bit about that from your perspective.

Richard Zahn:

Well, I'll give you a little perspective on the company and my involvement. And we actually, the family sold the company in 1987 to a private equity group. Citicorp Venture Capital purchased it in 1987. We were into the third generation of the family, and there's some lessons to be learned in how you manage that transition, but that's when we exited. Then Citicorp folks brought in a new management team and they wound up in bankruptcy about three years, four years after we sold it to them, came out of reorganization and, you're correct, sold the remaining, what was remaining of the company to Stage Stores, which is a Houston-based group, runs the Bealls stores and Stage and others.

My grandfather started in 1922. He had been mentored by Mr. Penney and actually had run... He was recruited by Mr. Penney to run a store in Idaho, but he always had the desire to be his own boss. So he moved back to Oklahoma. In '22, he bought what was a little dry goods store in Cushing that he was aware of and began to grow the business. And interesting facts, his model for growing the business, which was something that...

The philosophy of partnering with others to grow the business carried throughout the organization, but what he did was he recruited people to open other stores. And he partnered, he put up the money and they ran the stores, and then they split the profits. And that grew, he grew pretty quickly. They had 33 stores, I think, before the '30s by doing that.

And one of those people that he recruited was my other grandfather, Fred Zahn, Senior, who with his brother had had a store in Idaho. And that's where he and C. R. became acquainted. The company grew. It was very similar to the Penney model. The closest thing to it today that would be around probably is a Kohl's, although we were smaller. We were soft goods. We weren't selling refrigerators and TV sets and certainly computers.

And the model was a predecessor of the Walmart model. Most of our stores were in rural locations throughout the Southwest and eventually the Upper Midwest. And we actually had a few stores in California and Washington. And the model was built upon recruiting good people, treating store managers as if they were partners. And there's a funny story about that I'll tell you, if you'd like. And they had a lot of autonomy. The central office people were there to support the store owners. They had a lot of freedom to make decisions within their marketplace.

And as you said, we had a lot of success. We were fortunate. We never had debt. I should qualify that. We never ended a fiscal year owing the banks any money.

Aaron Ackerman:

Wow.

Richard Zahn:

That was part of my grandfather's mandate and legacy, and it came from his first experience as a part-owner in a store down in Holdenville. As was the custom at the time, they sold the farmers on credit. And so when the farm crops came in, farmers paid off their bills and everybody was happy. Well, they had a drought. The farmers didn't have crops. The only way to pay the bills was to liquidate the inventory, pay the bills.

So he learned his lesson and conveyed that we weren't going to borrow money. And that served us well. Maybe we could've been bigger and a larger footprint, had we been willing to take on more debt, but we didn't and it allowed us to build a significant operation through our own profits. We got through the transition from my grandfather to the next generation, and there were several other key leaders, most of whom had run stores that wound up coming into the central office.

Got into the third generation and, as many families do, it gets to be hard to manage all the expectations of... And we had a large family. There are 23 of us in my generation. So we were constantly approached by outside parties interested in buying the companies and wound up with a financial opportunity that was much more attractive than we thought we could get, and even the New York City investment bankers thought we could get, so we sold the company.

It was a great transaction for the family, and a lot of our employees were shareholders, so a lot of people had a significant event. The downside of it was it began the path that ended in a large local entity no longer being here. So it's a good news, bad news, but that's kind of the rambling story about the Anthony company and a little bit about the family.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's interesting. So do you know how long maybe, especially in the early days, how long would it take a new store, once you opened it, to become profitable. Because the no debt legacy from Mr. Anthony means, I guess you're taking profits from your existing stores to open a new one. And you're kind of taking the profits to feed the growth.

Richard Zahn:

Right.

Aaron Ackerman:

I mean, one, they must've been very profitable stores. And two, it must've not taken a long time for a store to get over the profit line.

Richard Zahn:

Yeah. That's a good question and I don't have a specific answer to how long it took to be profitable. I can tell you that the company never had a year in which it lost money, as a collective entity.

Aaron Ackerman:

Wow.

Richard Zahn:

And there were varying degrees of success among the stores, but he had a pretty good model. And they were important parts of the community. I get a kick out of a lot of people that I know, who wound up working for a store in Purcell, Oklahoma, or Clinton, Oklahoma, or McAllen, Texas, when they were in high school or summers in college. And so I think we had a huge impact on a lot of communities in which we were operating.

Aaron Ackerman:

Just out of curiosity, are there any stores out there anywhere, still branded as Anthony's?

Richard Zahn:

No. And I'm not sure... There used to be some locations that, it's been long enough, that would have the Bealls or the Stage, but there are none. They changed the brand. One of the things they did, right or wrong, when they bought it was they did change the name on everything.

A couple things, just kind of lessons learned looking back. They also did the opposite. We sold it in '87, which was a high-finance time, back when Milliken was printing money out on the West Coast. The amount of leverage they put on the company was mind-boggling.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

It was 10 times various debt instruments to the amount of equity they put up. And in those days, the oil boom continued up and down and they didn't have a lot of wiggle room.

One of the other things that I think is an important lesson that entrepreneurs can carry forward is that, back to the approach of treating employees as partners... There's a story that my dad used to tell me. Whether it's true or not, it's entertaining. They had kind of a simple model. The store manager got paid a base salary, and it wasn't significant, but they split the profits.

And it's a little more complicated, but basically 20% of the profits went to the local store manager, 80% of the profits went to the company. And my dad used to tell the story that my grandfather was in a conversation with some people who were challenging him on why he would do that, because in most years the highest paid people in the company were the store managers in the larger stores. I mean, in the '80s they were making more than $200,000.

And people would say, "Well, why don't... You could get somebody to run that store for $60,000." And my grandad's retort, as my father would tell, was, "Well, the way I look at it, for every dollar he makes, I make four. I'll do that all day long."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

And that was part of what the new ownership changed, almost immediately when they came in. I don't say that that caused their demise, but it certainly changed the culture of the company.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So with the focus on store managers and giving them a share in the profits, and I know, I think throughout the history that your family owned it, the slogan or logo was, "The friendliest store in town." Is that right?

Richard Zahn:

That was one of them, yes.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, one of them. And a lot of times, somebody that builds a company that successfully, they've got some toughness to them, obviously. I'm sure Mr. Anthony did, as well. But it also seems like he was somebody that people liked, liked to work for. He was generous in that way, that he did share probably more than he would've had to. So I'm curious if that's the way you would characterize the culture and the legacy that your grandfather left. And also, to the extent that that has shaped you in business and leadership, what are some of those imprints that Anthony's had for you, as you went on to do other things?

Richard Zahn:

Let me try and respond a couple ways. Yeah. People referred to it, who worked there, they referred to it as a family. And Mr. CR as he was called by everybody, including his grandkids, was a tough taskmaster. And he could, as one guy who was quoted as saying, "He could kick you in the butt real quickly," but he was also very good about patting you on the back and he was very good about getting people to give more than they could.

And he was very committed. One of the things that he's quoted as saying, one of his requirements was the store managers, for many years, made the bank deposits because he wanted them to know the bank, and the bankers to know them, and for them to be an important part of the communities in which they served. And I think that certainly was an important part of our family. I know our father, it was important to him that we share in the good fortune that we had and that we found ways to contribute to the communities in which we live.

I think the second part of your question was around what lessons do I take from that. I think there are probably two or three that come to mind. One is that the other thing of Mr. CR was that it wasn't just about being friendly, but he was very much about delivering value to the customer. And there's also stories about people trying to get him to raise prices and do things. And he wanted to make a fair profit but not an exceptional, exceedingly profit.

And I think one of the things that I've learned over time, and some of it was hard knocks, is that I really believe you build businesses from outside, in. You build it by knowing who your customer is, and knowing what they need and what they want, and finding a way to take care of that and make a profit at the same time. So I think that, you know, we talk about customer focus and customer-centric, he really had that.

I've spoken to his, our philosophy of treating people as partners, and part of that was letting them, as I said, make decisions, but the other part of that coin was, whether you call them values or principles or guidelines, everybody in that company knew how decisions would be made. They knew the right way to do things. They knew what Mr. CR would do in a situation, and they made decisions accordingly.

So I think one of the lessons is, and Jim Collins speaks to this in Good to Great, is it's having a real clear understanding of your values or how you're going to make decisions as you go about normal business is really important. There is another point I was going to make. It escapes me right now, but maybe it'll come back to me.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That's really good stuff. That's something we've been talking about a lot with some of our guests recently, and just with our team inside the firm, is really the customer, the client experience. And I've really been just gobbling up stories or anecdotes and principles that I get from people about how to make your customer feel really special, to feel valued, and all of that. So I appreciate you saying that. It's good stuff.

Maybe, and we can come back to Anthony's anytime you want, but kind of making a leap here to some stuff you're doing now as a consultant. And you and I both work in the consulting and advisory field. How do you see... We don't have a product like jeans or jackets or whatever that we're getting for a customer, but we're providing a service.

How do you see customer experience or customer service in that situation, kind of thinking about what you said with Anthony's, wanting to make sure the customer's always, is having value delivered to them? What are some ways that you feel like are some good techniques or principles for customer service today? And even right now, we're in a COVID world where we're not in face-to-face, in person as often. We're working with people over videos and emails and everything. Any thoughts you have around that, Richard?

Richard Zahn:

Well, I think it starts by just finding ways to listen, and to explore, and understand, I think willing to ask good questions, and learning. One of the things that I learned, this just maybe gets to your point, Aaron, is that when I first started working as a consultant, was part of a bigger group, and we had a first class we offered, which was a very comprehensive analysis of a company.

And I started trying to sell that, and it was expensive, because it was very comprehensive. And what I found was I couldn't sell that very well, but I always found a piece of that that really related to where the customer was at that point in time. And they could sell that, because it responded to a need in something that was on their radar, and something that they were willing to pay. And again, as a consultant, "What value are you bringing to me? Why should I pay somebody who's not in here every day to do this?"

So I think what I learned early on, from that perspective, was just be willing to listen, getting good at asking questions and understanding, and being flexible, one size doesn't fit all, and so trying to be responsive to the customer. In today's age, it's both easier, because we got a lot of different ways to connect with customers, but it's also awkward right now, because we're all learning to do it through technology. We're not doing it sitting across the table. I know it drives salespeople crazy.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

The boards that I serve on, I serve on several corporate boards, the sales force is just going nuts and we won't let them travel. So anyway, I think back to how do you... I think it is getting out of yourself and getting in their shoes. I mean, it's the old saying, you know? I think you got to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, and then figuring out how you can help.

And I think part of it is, this may sound funny, but I think it's a key for entrepreneurs who build a business. Just, if you care about people... And one of the easiest ways to show people you care about them is to listen to them.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

I mean, kind of like kids, the ways of kids. I mean, just spend time with them, listen to them. And I think the same is true of dealing with customers. So I think that's a challenge that we have, but I mean there's lots of ways to do it. I've never been in the fortunate position of having the great idea, great widget that everybody on Earth wanted to line up at my doorstep to pay for, so I've had to learn to get on the other side.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. That is so good. I love what you said about just listening. I think most people like to talk about themselves. And if you're talking, you're not learning. And particularly if you're working with clients, the more you're talking to a client or the more I'm talking to my clients, the less I'm listening and the less I'm learning. I think that's a really important point.

Richard Zahn:

There are others in this community who knew him much better, but one of the things that was always told to me about Aubrey McClendon, and I had an opportunity one night just to pay then a very small dinner with him. He was like Pac-Man. He would ask you one question and then another question and another question. He rarely talked, in the situations that I was in. He was constantly exploring and getting you to talk to him and tell a few things. And it was fascinating.

Richard Zahn:

I don't do that as well, because I like to talk and I have funny stories, I think, but it has served me well to build those kinds of relationships and to figure out where I can bring some value. And there are cases where I can't bring value or I'm not the right fit, for whatever reason.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well, and that, I mean, I think that's valuable too, to just say, "Hey, I know somebody else that may be a better resource here." Not a lot of people would be willing to do that. I think that is kind of a character thing. Richard, your LinkedIn headline, and I think it goes along with what you're saying here, says, "I am passionate about building relationships that enable me to facilitate the dreams of those with whom I work."

Aaron Ackerman:

When I saw that, I loved that. And one, what I know about you, I thought, "Yeah, that is a good description. I can see that about you." But that, it's really aspirational. And I love some of the words you've got in there about building relationship and helping other people meet their goals and facilitate their dreams. Maybe talk a little bit about that, just as your philosophy for life or business. Is that something that was modeled for you, you've developed that as you've grown? Or did you understand the importance of relationships early on?

I mean, I can tell you for me, that as a concept just gets more and more important and obvious to me, as I get older. I think it was probably... I didn't latch onto that as much as I should have when I was younger, but as I get older and mature a little bit, I get, "Man, it's all about people."

Richard Zahn:

Well, I think it is all about people. And I didn't come to that early in my business career. It took me a long time and a lot of experiences to come to that realization. I've run three companies in my earlier years. And I went through, and I think part of it was maybe ego-driven. I wanted to prove to the world I could do something similar to what my family had done, but through that journey...

And I had a fascinating partner in the last company that I ran. He kind of helped me figure out who I was. And that's where I figured out that I really think I enjoy most and I'm best served to go alongside of the others and help them be successful. I actually started out, Aaron, when I was in college I was on the track to be a college professor. In fact, I had applied to and been accepted to Stanford Business School's PhD program, and that's where I was headed.

In the end of my senior year in college, I began to have some second thoughts. And it was Vietnam era and I didn't want to get draft, so I took a sidebar and went in the Navy for four years. And during that time I changed my mind, I think. So, hardwired in me is that kind of teaching, mentor deal. And as much as I like to be, and my family would tell you I like to be the center of attention, in the professional world I really like to go alongside and behind somebody else.

And I've done a lot of executive coaching in the last 10 years. What's been so interesting for me is those have been with large corporate clients. And that's where I've seen, to get things done in big corporations, you really have to have relationships. And it's really reinforced to me the importance of building strong relationships, getting to know other people.

One senior executive, an exec at Exxon Mobile, he didn't... When I asked him... They had a major new initiative coming out, and I said, "Well, what's your role?" And he was head of a large part of Exxon Mobile. And he said, "Well, my job is to remove obstacles so my team can be successful." And one of the ways he did that was that he knew if he needed to pick up the phone and call somebody to get something done, he could get it done. And so it was that ability and having... I mean, obviously he was a very smart, is a very smart man, but he had those relationships.

And so I just enjoy it. I'm a external guy. I get my energy from being around other people. The COVID deal's been a little bit of a challenge for me, because I like being out and amongst big groups.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

So to you, but I do think... There's a book that somebody put me onto a while back called Real Influence. And part of it talks about you get it from... There are several things. Part of it is reputation, one of the other big drivers is results, getting people committed to big challenges and big dreams and big results, but the third piece of it is that the writer speaks to as building relationship.

So I just had a lot of reinforcement. It fits who I am. And quite frankly, at this stage in my career, I'm working less. A lot of what I do is connecting one person with another.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

I do it because I like to do it, and I like to see other people benefit from it.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's so good. Yeah, thank you. So Richard, maybe just for a minute, talk a little bit about what you're doing now as a consultant and as sitting on boards and anything that may be interesting to you, that you want to mention. I'll ask, maybe specifically, you can talk about anything you want, but we've mentioned COVID-19 a couple of times and the challenges that that provides in a lot of ways.

But from a business standpoint, as you're sitting on boards and advising companies, is there any prevailing, oh, thought or message that seems particularly important to you, that businesses need to really embrace during such a unique and historic time? And I'll preface that by saying one guy I've listened to a lot, for example, lately is Daniel Burrus. He's an author and a speaker, and he talks a lot about sort of almost doing the opposite of what you feel like doing.

So we might feel like kind of cowering and being afraid and hunkering down. And he says, "No, this would be the time to take a risk or to go make that investment." And that may or may not always be good advice, but I like just the thought process that he's trying to instill in people, is to not hunker down and lock the doors and wait for the world to get back to normal, but to do something kind of bold. But, yeah. Any way you want to take that, Richard, would be great.

Richard Zahn:

Yeah. It is really an uncertain time. I mean, I don't know that I've ever seen, and I've been around a while, anything comparable. And what's interesting to me is... So, part of what I'm... I don't do a lot of consulting anymore. I serve upon several corporate boards and I do a lot, I've done a fair amount of executive coaching, which has been interesting, because it's with senior people in large corporations, which is a different space for me. But everybody, I think one of the lessons is, even the big guys are all trying to figure this out.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

And so we're all in the same boat, everybody. I had a conversation with a senior executive at a large airline late yesterday, that most of us are familiar with, who's been a coaching client. And they're trying to make decisions without a clear picture of what happens. Their original model was, come the fall, business travel comes back to normal, everybody starts traveling. Well, that ain't going to happen.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

Is it going to come back in 90 days? So I think the first lesson is, take comfort that nobody's got a good crystal ball. So I think part of the responsibility of corporations, leaders of corporations is you got to have some options and you got to do, whether it's [inaudible 00:35:49] scenario planning, "What do we do if this? What do we do if that," begin to try and anticipate.

I think in the concessions I've had, one thing that has shifted, I shouldn't say it's shifted, but one part of decision-making that's become much more important is that the safety of employees has become paramount.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

Period. Even at the risk of some financial implications. And everybody who's gone down that path, and I think most corporations have, have incurred some costs, whether it's shutting plants down or investing in cleaning and testing, whatever. And I think that's healthy.

I think the other thing is, because it's so uncertain and there's so many different commentaries going around, I think communicating within a leadership team... I know my boards that I'm on, until recently, we've met every week by phone, for an hour, just to deal with whatever this week's issue was.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

And I know the management... This same leader at this airline, yesterday he said he has a meeting every day at 4:00 with his team, just to deal [inaudible 00:37:17]. So I think communication's become paramount.

I'm curious. I'm not sure I'm in the camp that you got to be bold and take some risks, but I do think it is a mistake to shut down and just to hunker down. I think you got to find ways to get through it. Two of the companies I'm involved in, we had a horrible April. When everybody, the whole world shut down, nobody knew what was going, revenue just fell off the table. Both of those have come back.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Richard Zahn:

And we don't know what the next quarter looks like, but we've had some really good months here. And part of that is just looking for new opportunities. One of them actually, it's been in the newspaper, so I'm not talking out of school, but I'm on the board of a company called Gemini Coatings, over in El Reno. We make wood finishes and stains and things like that. Well, we had somebody come to us and say, "Hey, I've got a huge contract to provide a hand sanitizer. Can you make hand sanitizer?" So we went, "Hm, that's an interesting thought." And we're now making hand sanitizer.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

And so I think the other company, there were just opportunities where competitors had shut down or not responded to the crisis, and so customers started coming, saying, "Hey, I can't get a response from this person. Can I get something?" So I guess I'm not in the, "Let's be bold and take big risks," but I do think it's a mistake to go into hibernation. I think there are opportunities out there. And I think the smart companies are the companies that go back to our theme from earlier, are listening to their customers, paying attention to what their need is.

I think, I said it in a call the day before yesterday with the sales forecast, "We knock it way back down, and now we keep edging it up because we keep finding new opportunities out there that we can serve, that other people aren't serving." So I think that's being smart and being out in the world and finding those opportunities, I think is important. And I just don't know.

I mean, I know when I talk to people I think are a lot smarter than I am and have access to a lot of information I don't have, and they don't have a clear picture. So they're doing the best they can and preparing for different alternatives, and they're trying to find a way through it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Now that is interesting, what you said about the executive of the large company that meets every day at 4:00, and you're having these very frequent board meetings. I mean, there is no playbook for this. Nobody has it. I think there will be some innovation. I mean, we've seen innovation already. Right?

Just take, the most obvious thing is restaurants. I mean, for restaurants to say open, they had to figure out how to serve food to people in different ways without filling up their dining room. I mean, I've ordered food and had it delivered, and picked it up, and done things almost on a daily basis, that I never did before. So some things, we'll see. Some things will probably be forever changed, and some things eventually will resemble what we knew before 2020, but...

I think the way I've kind of interpreted that, "Be bold," Daniel Burrus thing is, I think it is, depending on the environment or the industry and what kind of business you're in, but this could be an environment where there may be something you've always wanted to try, and you hadn't because you didn't want to fail or it could have been a little too risky. In some ways, now there may be a lot less to lose.

And if there's that aspect of serving customers or clients, or something, a program that you've always wanted to try but just hadn't quite pulled the trigger, why not now? Right? I mean, grace is going to be extended a lot quicker and more fully right now in the business world, than ever before I think.

Richard Zahn:

Well, and I think you touched on something else that I do think is absolutely true, is it's a time to be innovative. In the manufacturing, well, we had to figure out how to operate plants while social distancing. And some of that is physical, but we've done things like being creative on how we staff, shifts, how many shifts are in. In one of them we went, we divided into two teams who went two 12-hour days, then you had two days off, and back. And that's not the perfect answer, but refining the way we did it in the past.

The other one, we found that four 10-hour days works a lot better for us. We're actually more productive because of the startup and start-down times that you go through in a manufacturing plant. So I think it is a time to be innovative. And to your point, I think there is a grace.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

And I think the other side of the coin is, it has also forced us, in a couple places, to look at some things we'd been doing and make some hard decisions that we'd put off because nobody wanted to make them, and they were hard, and the facts were not lined to just [inaudible 00:43:31] one way or the other. And we just said, "You know, we got to reposition and we got to make some tough calls." And we've done that. Time will tell, but initially it seems to have been wise things to do. So I think to be bold... Well, I think maybe I'm talking myself into that word, about being bold.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well, that's good stuff. I could talk to you for a lot longer, but I think we're coming to the end of our time. So I've got a few, five or so questions we ask every guest. So if you're-

Richard Zahn:

So Aaron, can I interrupt you?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

Because you just went... There's one thing that I'd like to get, quote, "on the record," that I think is important. And then we'll do the five. And I promise to be short. But this has become one of my mantras. And there's a book written, called the Pause Principle, that sort of got me onto this. Leaders need to find time for themselves and to think. In this new technology [inaudible 00:44:49], it's easy to have 10 Zoom meetings in a day, or 12, or [crosstalk 00:44:57], and no time to think.

And this really came home to me... I mean, I've been on this mantra, Aaron, and you're kind enough to let me get on it, but... I was being interviewed to be the coach of a very senior executive. He was probably the third or fourth highest-ranking person in his company. And I'm sort of going, "What do you need from me? I mean, you're a lot more successful than I ever thought I was. How could I help you? What's your biggest problem?"

He goes, "Richard, I don't have any time. I don't have time to think. I don't have time to work, to really mentor my direct reports or anything." And I just, I was incredulous. I looked at him and I said, "You're the third highest-ranking person in this company. Can't you create some time?" And then he went through, "Mondays, we have these meetings. Tuesday... Wednesday, we have..."

And I turned to, because I've done this in the past and I've got, and nobody's fired me because of it. I turn to his assistant, who is standing there at the time [inaudible 00:45:54]. I said, "Could you carve out two hours a week, block out, nobody gets in his office, no interruptions unless it's his boss or the building's on fire, so he can get... because he's getting paid to think." And she goes, "Well, I could do that all day long."

And I run into that, Aaron, everywhere. Senior exec, people who are leading an organization, whether senior executives or entrepreneurs think that they got to be busy to deliver value. And you got to find time to stop and think. I'm off my soapbox. I could tell you other stories about that-

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. No, that's-

Richard Zahn:

... but I think it's a trap we fall into.

Aaron Ackerman:

I'm so glad you brought that up. I love it. And you've mentioned... I always write down book recommendations, and you've mentioned at least two here, The Pause Principle and Real Influence, so if any of our listeners are interested in that, check those out. But I love what you said and I totally agree with you. I got some advice recently from our CEO here at the firm. And he said, "You need to only do the things that only you can do."

Richard Zahn:

Right.

Aaron Ackerman:

And I think about that a lot. And it's kind of a tongue-twister but, golly, it's profound in that way that how much of what I do, if I just didn't do it, nobody would even notice if I stopped doing it. Right? And I get busy, and we all do this, right, we get busy with these meetings and returning emails and making phone calls and stuff. And some of it's really important, some of it somebody else could do, some of it I could not do, and nobody would even notice or care. And so, why are we doing that kind of stuff, obviously? I'm glad you brought it up. That is such a good mantra, a good soapbox to have.

This is totally a non sequitur, but it just popped in my head. One time I had told you, we were talking about Anthony's and I told you, "Yeah, I remember there was an Anthony's close to my house when I grew up. And we'd always go, at the end of the summer, go to Anthony's and get back-to-school clothes. And I was always excited to get a new pair of jeans, because I had two brothers and we were rough on stuff, and we'd always tear holes in our jeans [crosstalk 00:48:14]."

And you told me, if I remember this right, you correct me if I'm wrong, Richard, but you said at one point, before probably Walmart and Target exploded, Anthony's was the number one seller of Levi's jeans in the United States. Am I remembering that right?

Richard Zahn:

That's correct.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's crazy.

Richard Zahn:

In the early '80s, we sold... That's what they told us, that we sold more Levi's than anybody in the country.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Well, we bought some of them, for sure. I don't know why that just flashed across my mind, but I remembered that and thought that was a funny little fact about Anthony's.

Okay, as we wrap up here I want to ask you a few questions. First one is, what is the first way you ever remember making money?

Richard Zahn:

It was either one of two. I can't remember which came first, the chicken or the egg. I either was a lifeguard, or I actually worked in The Village store, C. R. Anthony store in the summer and over holidays. So that's the first paycheck I ever got.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's great. I thought it might have been in the family business, but... I'm trying to think. We've had a lot of babysitting and lawn mowing and paper routes. I don't remember hearing a lifeguard, so that's a good one. So if you had not spent your career in business and being on boards and consulting and doing all the things you've done, if you had not gone that path, what would you have done? What would you be, if you weren't doing what you're doing?

Richard Zahn:

I probably would be a college professor.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Richard Zahn:

That's where I was headed, and I think it suits me well. I have a brother who's a retired college professor. And when you get past the early stages, it's a pretty good life.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, yeah.

Richard Zahn:

I mean, it's not a... Yeah. I think in hindsight, that's probably where I would have wound up.

Aaron Ackerman:

So what would you like to go back and tell your 20-year-old self?

Richard Zahn:

These get deeper as you go down here, Aaron. Without becoming too philosophical, I think, and maybe I spoke to it in my journey, professionally. I think for me, it was learning to be true to who I was and what drove me, and to go pursue that. Don't be overly influenced by others' expectations or trying to please people because they think you should be this person or that person. And I think part of that's, it's not a negative, but the Anthony experience, it was a wonderful experience but it came with a lot of expectations. And it took me a while to kind of figure that out, but it worked out.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's good. So what would be the title of your book, autobiography, the story of Richard's life, what would you call it?

Richard Zahn:

I've really struggled with this, but it would be something about my journey to the self-fulfillment, finding the importance of faith, family, and friends. That, at the end of the day, is the bottom line for me.

Aaron Ackerman:

I love that, faith, family, and friends. That's really good. That could be the book right there.

Richard Zahn:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

What is the best advice you've ever received?

Richard Zahn:

You know, it's hard for me to sort this one out. And I've received a lot of advice, and I've read a lot, because I love to read things. So I'd answer it two ways, Aaron. Personally, my father, who was a man of few words, really helped me as a father one time. And it goes back to what I was saying I would have told my 20-year-old self. In my father's views, I was trying to drive one of my sons in a certain direction. And there were things he did that just drove me crazy.

And my dad got in my face one day and said, "You know what? You need to leave him alone and let him go where he wants to go, and he'll be just fine." And that was really good advice. And that son has made decisions throughout his life that sometimes I wondered about, but they wound up being the right decisions for him, even though they may not have been the decision I would have made. So that was good.

One of the things that you were just talking about, which I think is not advice. Actually, it was advice I heard, because I heard Jim Collins speak a number of times when he was making his trips around. And almost every time, as I remember it, he ended his speech, when he was talking about Good to Great and all the wonderful principles in that and Built to Last, he always ended with this comment.

He said, "If you don't do anything else other than this one thing when you leave here, here's what you need to go do. You go build a not-to-do list. You and your team build a not-to-do list, because there are things that you're doing every day that you don't need to do or are getting in the way of you doing things that you need to be doing." And I use that a lot with coaching clients. It goes back to just the fact that we're all much busier than we have... We all have the same amount of time, you just get real busy.

So, being intentional about saying, "Are these things that I can just stop doing, or we as a team can stop doing?" I've had people... Meetings. "Why do you have this meeting?" "Well, we've always had this meeting."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yep.

Richard Zahn:

"Well, why do you have 20 people in the meeting?" "Because we've always had 20 people." So with that, I guess that is advice that I heard. And I heard him say it more than once, and it stuck with me.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that is really good. I like that, a not-to-do list. We all have to-do lists, but we probably should spend as much time on the writing down the not-to-do list.

Well, I really appreciate your insights and sharing your experiences and being kind of transparent, even about Anthony's and the family business. I really appreciate all of that. It's very interesting. And one thing, just to kind of acknowledge you real quick, you mentioned during our conversation that you really, you're not doing as much consulting anymore, but you like to do one-on-one connecting. When you said that, I was like, "Yeah, that's right." You've even done that for me, and connected other people to me a couple of times here, just in the past few months or a couple years, certainly.

But, I appreciate just getting to be around you a little bit the last few years. And I definitely appreciate you coming and being on the show today. And I hope you and your family are able to stay safe. And as a fellow extrovert, hopefully we'll be able to get out and meet for coffee and lunch, and get in a big group someday soon.

Richard Zahn:

I appreciate it. I really appreciate it, Aaron. Thanks for the opportunity.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right, thanks a lot. We'll see you later.

Richard Zahn:

Take care. Stay safe.

Aaron Ackerman:

And that's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit HowThatHappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play, or Stitcher. This content is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2020, HoganTaylor LLP. All rights reserved. To view the HoganTaylor General Terms and Conditions, visit www.HoganTaylor.com.