5. Matt Crafton - Crafton Tull

Matt Crafton:

When I went to the Air Force Academy, I thought I was going to be a fighter pilot, and I was going to design airplanes. Along the way, I grew up and realized that that wasn't really what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a civil engineer.

Engineering is fun. It's the funnest part of my job. Enjoy the place you are, wherever that might be. And enjoy that time in your life, because it'll be gone someday.

Robert Wagner:

From HoganTaylor CPAs and Advisors, I'm Robert Wagner, and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. Each episode of the show, we sit down with the business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens.

Robert Wagner:

Our guest today is Matt Crafton. Matt is the CEO of Crafton Tull, a civil engineering, surveying, architecture, and planning firm with more than 200 employees across 10 offices in Arkansas and Oklahoma. Crafton Tull was founded in 1963 by Matt's father, Bob, and a fellow engineer named Lem Tull.

Robert Wagner:

Matt is a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, with a degree in civil engineering. He received his master of science and engineering from the University of Texas in Austin, with a specialty in construction engineering and project management.

Robert Wagner:

Matt served as an officer in the active duty Air Force for a little over eight years. In 1993, he was recognized as the Air Force's Civil Engineer of the Year. In 1998, Matt transitioned to the Air Force Reserve, and joined Crafton Tull as a project manager.

Robert Wagner:

Then over the ensuing 10 years, Matt rose the position of chief operating officer, and was appointed chief executive officer in 2009. Matt, welcome to the How That Happened podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Matt Crafton:

You bet. Good to be here.

Robert Wagner:

Matt, I think the appropriate place to start would be, first, just to thank you for your service to our country. I very much appreciate that.

Matt Crafton:

Oh, I appreciate that. I never really thought of it that way. It was just an opportunity and something I wanted to do, and I had a great time doing it. But I appreciate you saying that.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. How did it come to be that you went to the Air Force Academy?

Matt Crafton:

It was a long way back. I was on a church youth trip when I was in seventh grade, and we visited Colorado and took a tour of the Air Force Academy. And it was like, "Wow, this is pretty cool."

Matt Crafton:

And so kind of set that goal for myself. Started talking to my parents about it, and started working towards that in high school. It's a long application process, takes about two years, really. So started working on that, and it fortunately worked out.

Robert Wagner:

That's great. That's great. Just so we have a foundation for our listeners of what you do, what Crafton Tull does, can you just explain what a civil engineer does and what that business is?

Matt Crafton:

Sure. We've been in business for 55-plus years now. Primarily we're a civil engineering and surveying company, and those two services don't always, but very often, go hand in hand. So being civil engineering and surveying, surveying obviously is the land, surveying outside on land. And the civil engineers, a lot of times take those surveys, and when we do projects, we do design projects from those.

Matt Crafton:

We also have architects. We have a small group of architects in our Fayetteville office. We have landscape architects in our company and planning. But about 95% of our revenue is from civil engineering and surveying.

Matt Crafton:

A lot of different things that we do for a lot of different clients. Even though it's civil engineering and surveying, we have a wide variety of things that we do. We have a division, primarily surveying, that works for oil and gas companies.

Matt Crafton:

And most of that work is in Texas, but also in Oklahoma and parts of Arkansas and Louisiana. We've got some guys up in North Dakota right now, and other parts of the country. So we work for midstream oil and gas companies doing pipeline surveys, mostly.

Matt Crafton:

We have a totally different group of engineers in our company that just work on highway and bridge projects, primarily for state departments of transportation. Arkansas Department of Transportation is one of our longtime clients that we're very proud of.

Matt Crafton:

And so we've got a group of folks that that's all they do, is work on highway design projects. Those tend to be pretty big and long-term projects. We love doing that kind of work. Love designing highways and bridges. And so very privileged to do that.

Matt Crafton:

We've a group of surveyors and engineers that just, we call it our infrastructure division. And it's more of our local projects, where we're working for municipalities in Arkansas and Oklahoma. We work for private land developers in Arkansas and Oklahoma, and just other entities. Counties, and school districts, and other architecture firms, just doing general civil engineering and surveying.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. That's a great foundation. I appreciate that. So I'm still going to take you back a little bit. What was civil engineering in the Air Force? I mean, what kind of things were you doing there?

Matt Crafton:

It was definitely different than what we're doing now. So civil engineering in the Air Force, as a military guy, it was more expeditionary. So I was in a unit called Red Horse, and we were a combat construction unit. And we would deploy all over the world and support the Air Force mission.

Matt Crafton:

If the Air Force had a mission in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, or anywhere else in the world, they took engineers with them to help build runways, taxiways, tent cities. All the things that the Air Force needs in order to operate that mission.

Matt Crafton:

So the engineers were kind of behind the scenes. You don't think about construction when you think about Air Force necessarily, you think about airplanes. But in order for those airplanes to fly, they've got to have a place to fly off of. They've got to have a place to live, and all those kinds of support things. And so that's what we did as engineers in the Air Force.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. So if you think about... I guess I think about your career, what I've been able to glean. You sort of did your apprenticeship in the military, right? As a young engineer.

Matt Crafton:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

How is that experience different from someone who comes to a firm and does their first eight years, or six years in a firm?

Matt Crafton:

It is definitely different. The military engineering experiences was a little less technical, I would say. Less crunching numbers, designing calculations, that kind of thing. And more managing people and making it happen. And so it was good, but it was different.

Matt Crafton:

With a typical civil engineer who graduates from college and goes to work for a consulting engineer firm like ours, they're sitting down at a computer and they're crunching. And we just have them cranking design calculations, like drainage calculations, and designing roadways and parking lots and sites, and all kinds of different things.

Matt Crafton:

So a new graduate engineer that would come to work for Crafton Tull is going to be immersed right in the thick of design. And that's the way we want to do it. It's the way it works in our industry. That prepares them for four years later, being able to take the professional engineering exam to become a licensed engineer.

Matt Crafton:

So that's the way it works. But in the Air Force it's very different. And so it was much more, like I said, expeditionary in nature. We would do a lot of things on the fly and get it done kind of thing. Had some great, fantastic mentors when I was in the Air Force. But there's less emphasis on professional licensure and that kind of thing when you're in the military.

Robert Wagner:

Do you have the opportunity to get your PE in the military? Or is it-

Matt Crafton:

I did it on my own.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Matt Crafton:

Like I said, it's not a real high emphasis, but it's something I wanted to do for my personal career. And so studied on my own for several months, and somehow managed a passing grade and became licensed while I was in the military.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. So Matt, if I've done the math right, you, I don't think, remember a time when there wasn't a Crafton Tull. I think Crafton Tull started before there was Matt, right?

Matt Crafton:

That's correct. Fortunately, right now I'm younger than 55. So yeah. My dad, Bob Crafton, and Lem Tull founded the firm in 1963 here in Rogers, Arkansas. And they had both been engineers at the Arkansas Highway Department for about eight or nine years after graduating from the University of Arkansas.

Matt Crafton:

So they started their career kind of like I did, with government. Then it was mostly Lem that convinced my dad to go out on their own. And just the two of them came up with their wives and the kids that they had at the time, and started our company in a motel room in downtown Rogers. Humble, humble beginning.

Robert Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:09:44] by the week and...

Matt Crafton:

Yeah. Humble beginning. So that's the way it started. Yeah, I came along a little bit later. And actually Jim Tull came along a little later too.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. So were you that kid that tagged along with dad to the office on Saturday and project sites? Were you that guy?

Matt Crafton:

I was always interested in it. And so he would take me around in a car or a truck, and we'd go look at job sites and that kind of stuff. See things under construction. And that always intrigued me.

Matt Crafton:

I actually did not work for Crafton Tull when I was in high school, but I mowed the lawn. And so they were one of my first lawn customers. $15 a week was the first paycheck from Crafton Tull. Jim Tull actually worked on a survey crew. And our chief administrative officer right now, Rick Barclay, also worked on a survey crew when they were in high school.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. So you were touching the company and you were seeing it.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely grew up with it.

Robert Wagner:

I mean, I've never been a part of building things. But I can just think about, if I was, and I'd drive around with my kids, I mean, I'd be telling them, "Hey, I designed this bridge." Right? I mean, I assume that was going on in your house.

Matt Crafton:

Oh yeah. It went on when I grew up, and now my kids have to live with it. When we drive down a road, they just know it's coming. I point out stuff that we worked on.

Matt Crafton:

My son, it was just a little parking lot that we designed over in Bentonville that I happened to work on. And he got tired of going to the parking lot to see it being built. But he knows where it is now.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. So maybe we've already answered this, but was it just inevitable you would become a civil engineer? Or did you think about other things?

Matt Crafton:

Actually when I went to the Air Force Academy, I thought I was going to be a fighter pilot and I was going to design airplanes.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Matt Crafton:

So along the way, I kind of grew up and realized that that wasn't really what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a civil engineer. And so it just kind of happened while I was in college, and I'm glad I made that decision. It's the natural fit for me personally.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. So I want to talk about succession a little bit. Succession is a huge issue in the American economy right now. I mean, the boomer generation is transferring immense amount of wealth and businesses to someone. Sometimes to family, sometimes to not. To third parties, et cetera. What was the transition like for you?

Matt Crafton:

Yup. Again, I refer to Crafton and Tull. It's always been kind of that partnership mentality. But Jim came to work at Crafton Tull in '93, his dad retired three years later. I came in '98. My dad retired two years later.

Matt Crafton:

So we both got to work with our fathers for a short time before they retired. And then we both purchased our father's interest in the business. It was great for that short time, being able to actually be employed with my dad in the company. But we're different people from our fathers, and different personalities and different ways of looking at things.

Matt Crafton:

And so it's kind of unique, where sons of the founders have come on. Jim and I have a great relationship. We argue about certain things, back and forth, but it's always in the spirit of what's best for our company.

Matt Crafton:

So it's been good. And we brought our own personalities and ways of looking at things to the business, with also that sense of pride and history of where we came from.

Robert Wagner:

So in the transition, it doesn't sound like there was a written plan. You just sort of jumped in and kind of took it.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah. Nothing written in stone. In fact, Jim will tell you that he had no intention of working for Crafton Tull. It just kind of happened. He started his career in Dallas, and through some circumstances wound up here. And I don't think he really intended to stay here long, but here he is, 25 something years later.

Matt Crafton:

So no, it wasn't really a written plan at all. Both of our dads wanted to retire at some point. And it just happened that we, Jim and I, were both in a position where we could buy that stock over time. So it worked out well for us all.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. And I think that was 2009, is when you became CEO, at least.

Matt Crafton:

Yes.

Robert Wagner:

I think is, right?

Matt Crafton:

That's right.

Robert Wagner:

So it's 10 years now, but that was not a great time in the American economy. What was it like, taking over the reins at that moment in time in Crafton Tull?

Matt Crafton:

Yeah, those were, honestly, some dark days. And our industry in particular, architecture and engineering were hit very hard during the recession. And it depends on the different type of firm, and the type of clients that people work for.

Matt Crafton:

We've always been kind of 50/50, work half public and half private clients. And our private clients really got hit hard, which slowed down all their work, which affected us badly. And so those were tough days. But we managed to come through it and survive.

Matt Crafton:

At one point, depending on what you read from national publications and stuff, unemployment amongst architects during the recession, it was like 25%. Engineers, maybe 15%. So it was tough. And we sure had our share of that.

Matt Crafton:

But you grow through those things, you learn hard knocks through those experiences. And we think we came through it, after it was all said and done, maybe a stronger company and a stronger way of looking at things than maybe we would've had otherwise.

Matt Crafton:

Before the recession, everything's great. And you kind of get that sense of, "Well, I'm bulletproof. All this is great because of what I've done." And then you realize that the market has a lot to do with your success.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. We work with a lot of clients, and any client that's been around, went through that time, who's touched construction. I mean, if they're just associated with construction. They'll tell you. I mean, it's like the young kids say, it left a mark, right? I mean, it made an impact to them.

Robert Wagner:

I remember talking to a guy who was talking about succession in his company and the various options. And he felt so strongly... We talked about, "Hey, do you have kids coming up?"

Robert Wagner:

And he said, "I wouldn't put my kids through that again. I mean, it just wouldn't do it. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how good a deal this would be. I'm not putting my kids through what I went through in 2008 and 2009."

Matt Crafton:

I have had those same thoughts. I have four kids. And at the time I said, "I'm not going to let them go through this." I would not stop them now if they wanted to go into engineering. I'm not sure that any of my four are looking at that. Two of them for sure are not. And the two still at home, I don't think they're heading that way.

Matt Crafton:

But yeah, I've had those thoughts too. It's like, "Man, it was tough. I wouldn't wish this on anybody." But like I said, we managed to survive, and...

Robert Wagner:

What do you think were some of the key decisions that you had to make during that time?

Matt Crafton:

Boy, tough. We didn't have a choice. We looked at every expense on the books. I mean, everything to try to save cost while you're in a declining revenue situation.

Matt Crafton:

And we had our share of layoffs. Didn't like it. It was awful. Had to do several of those personally myself, and it was gut-wrenching. But it was either that or else.

Matt Crafton:

So we had to do what we had to do. Fortunately, those folks found other employment other places. And so we're glad of that. We tried to help people through that as best we could. But yeah, it wasn't any fun.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Well, let's turn something more positive.

Matt Crafton:

[crosstalk 00:17:46] Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

It's good. You guys have used acquisitions as a growth strategy. So talk about that a little bit, and how you've decided to do that, what it's added to your firm?

Matt Crafton:

It shows you the importance of strategic planning. Way back, probably 18 years ago, we did some strategic planning, and we said, "We want to grow. And this is the way we want to grow in geographic locations, as well as different types of services we want to do."

Matt Crafton:

And so when we had that strategic plan, then we started marching in that direction as a firm, and as management. And so we had some pretty, for us, large acquisitions, mergers, that we went through trying to achieve that strategic plan.

Matt Crafton:

Didn't all work out the way we thought it might at the very beginning, but we had several acquisitions there. It's been a while since we've done acquisitions, so these were more like from 15 to 10 years ago, in that timeframe, that we did quite a bit of that.

Matt Crafton:

There's a whole discussion about mergers and acquisitions. And I would just say, just make sure you know what you're looking for, and make sure it's a great cultural fit. You can look at finances and say, "Wow, this is going to be great." But numbers don't always tell the whole story.

Matt Crafton:

You've got to make sure that the culture fits, that there's a great mix and desire of both firms to do this. And everybody's at a clear direction on, here's where we're heading. But yeah, we've done a lot of smaller acquisitions, and a couple, for us, pretty large ones.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. So still talking about leadership and your role as CEO, what are the things you've had to learn that aren't engineering in being the CEO? What are those things that maybe come a little hard for you?

Matt Crafton:

Well, as a CEO, like it or not, you've got to be a communicator with your own staff, sometimes with the public or outside agencies, that kind of thing. People are going to look to the CEO to say something when the time comes.

Matt Crafton:

And so you've got to be able to communicate, both in writing and verbally. It's just part of the job. And so those are things that I've had to learn. I'm more of an introvert naturally, and so I've had to come out of that shell and learn how to do that.

Matt Crafton:

So communication, for sure. I think connecting with people, with your employees, is important. Connecting with clients, particularly some of your, what might be significant for the company, strategic clients. Very important clients. Kind of maintaining that touch from the top, I think is good too.

Robert Wagner:

Communication. Yup. Yeah. So you gave us a great overview early on about the various service lines at Crafton Tull. And if you think about the things that you guys design, structures, bridges, buildings, those kinds of things. I mean, there's just inherent risk in those things. I mean, big time risk, right?

Matt Crafton:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Something goes wrong, it's a serious thing.

Matt Crafton:

This is true.

Robert Wagner:

How do you manage that? How do you think about it? I mean, I hope at this point you're not staying awake at night completely worried about it.

Matt Crafton:

No, I mean, you get used to some things. And it can be very frustrating when you finish a project, and your people have just poured their hearts into it, done the best they can, and something goes wrong. Whether it's your fault or not, you have to deal with those situations.

Matt Crafton:

So managing it, we have some contracting policies that we insist on for our firm, that we just consider inviolate. This is the way we're going to do our contracts. And so we focus a lot on, before we ever start work, trying to get that written document correct. Because it will include a detailed scope of services, here's what we're going to do on this project. And really outline that, and make sure our client understands what we're going to do for them.

Matt Crafton:

We have a quality control process. Each of our divisions, very different, unique divisions that work for different types of clients, but they all have their own quality control process. It has written procedures, and we insist on following those.

Matt Crafton:

And so, for example, in our Infrastructure Division, all of our projects are to go through our quality control process. That several times during the course of the design, we're reviewing the things that are being done so that when it goes out to construction, hopefully, those have been reviewed several times by different people in our company.

Matt Crafton:

So that's a measure of risk. And then we think that, in our business, our line of work, we can help our clients, our contractors, and us, by being involved during the construction process.

Matt Crafton:

And that may be a little, or it may be a lot. But we think as professionals, we have something to add. We can answer questions, we can clarify things. We can see things that are coming that might be wrong and head those off before they happen.

Matt Crafton:

And so we think that being involved in the construction process, even though we're not the ones building it. Being out there and seeing what's being done, and being involved in that, is also a way to try to keep things from going wrong.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. So you mentioned contracting, and I want to go back to that for a second, because I've talked about that with a few other guests. You're contracting with state agencies some, and then with private contractors and others. Is that a David and Goliath situation a lot of times? I mean, I think the government certainly is Goliath, right?

Matt Crafton:

That, yes. If you want to work for them, then this is the way it's going to be, to a point. And fortunately we have a great relationship, for example, with the Arkansas DOT. Have a great relationship, and so we know what to expect when we do contracts with them.

Matt Crafton:

It's their contract form, and that's the way it's going to be. We understand that. We draft up a detailed scope of services, and an estimate of the work that we're going to do for them. We negotiate. We sit at a table. We figure things out. Actually, we don't mind those at all. We don't mind those at all.

Matt Crafton:

For a lot of our clients, we have some standard industry contract forms that we use within our company. Certain clients are not going to accept that. The states, they've got their form, this is the way they're going to do it, and that's fine. But for a lot of our other work, we've got our own contract forms that we've developed through national standards, and some edits to those through the years.

Robert Wagner:

Gotcha. What does the competitive landscape look like in your business? Are there big national, international players that you have to compete with?

Matt Crafton:

There are, yup. There's a wide range of engineering firms and architecture firms and surveying firms. From really small, one, two, three person shops, up to mega corporations. And we're consider ourselves kind of a mid-sized company at 250 people.

Matt Crafton:

And we compete on all scale. So we'll go up against some smaller firms, and then we'll go up occasionally on... Some of these, particularly the government projects, attract a lot of these large national firms. And we compete against them.

Robert Wagner:

Is this like a Jacobs or firms like that?

Matt Crafton:

Could be. There's a huge company called AECOM. They're the largest engineering company in the world. 25,000 employees, or something like that. International, every continent.

Matt Crafton:

Then there's some large national firms that we compete against. Then you get into your smaller kind of regional firms. And then just your one office, local firm. And so there's a wide variety of different types of engineering firms. Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Talk a little bit about... I've worked with some other engineering firms, not civil firms. But just the RFP process, and the proposal process in itself.

Robert Wagner:

I mean, just as an outsider, non-technical person, I look at this process and I think, "You've done the project to put the proposal together."

Matt Crafton:

That's the way we feel sometimes. Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

I mean, as a CEO, that's a resource allocation issue, right? And how to think about how much to put into this, and what it takes. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Matt Crafton:

Yes. And actually, I made fun of it. We don't mind it. I mean, that's the industry we're in. We understand that. And that's just part of doing business.

Matt Crafton:

In the United States, in 1972, there was the Brooks Act that was pass by Congress. And it basically says that for government projects, the government must select a professional based on their qualifications rather than a low bid price.

Matt Crafton:

They do that to ensure that the public is getting the best expertise, the best service, at a reasonable, negotiated price. And the states have adopted that. Arkansas, Oklahoma adopted that law. It's called the Brooks Act. And so that's the way we operate.

Matt Crafton:

So municipalities, states, in Arkansas, they put out a public advertisement that says, "We want to hire an engineer for this project. If you're interested, submit us your qualifications by this date." And that goes into where you're talking about.

Matt Crafton:

And it varies. There's a lot of different variations in this process. But it's basically, you submit qualifications. Typically the city, the state, they will make a short list of firms. So they'll say, "Okay, of all these qualifications from all these different firms, we want to consider these three."

Matt Crafton:

And so they'll invite those three firms to either submit a more detailed proposal, and/or come and do an interview with us. And spend 30 minutes or an hour telling them why we're the best, most qualified, greatest engineering firm in the world for this project. Then if you're fortunate enough to get selected, then you negotiate a contract with that city or state agency.

Matt Crafton:

So that's kind of the typical way that that works. And it's a lot of labor to put that all together. We've got our own marketing staff, several people that that's all they do for us is help us try to win those projects, support us when we're trying to go out and win those things.

Matt Crafton:

It's a lot. But that's okay. We understand that that's the industry we're in, that's part of doing business, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. Matt, innovation and disruption is affecting any industry. How is it affecting your industry?

Matt Crafton:

It seems like it never stops. And it really hasn't stopped. If you go back in the 1980s, everything was being drafted with paper and pencils and pens. And in the late '80s, early '90s, computer-aided drafting came along.

Matt Crafton:

When I was just first starting in the Air Force, I mean, we were just getting into it, with the automatic plotters. We were just amazed that you could draw something on a computer and send it to a plotter, and have it printed out. That was just, "Wow."

Matt Crafton:

And so computer-aided drafting came along, and that has continued to evolve. Software, design software that helps us do our calculations faster, has continued to evolve just year over year.

Matt Crafton:

Surveying certainly has continued major disruption. Way back when Bob and Lem started our firm, it was basic survey instruments, pulling chains and all that kind of stuff that had not changed a whole lot in 200 years.

Matt Crafton:

But then the survey instruments themselves became more and more sophisticated. About 20 years ago, GPS surveying came along. And at first it was this "gee whiz" thing. We had one GPS survey instrument in our company 20 years ago, and we were just amazed that we could use satellites to survey things on the ground. And we didn't trust it at all. We said, "No way is this going to be accurate."

Matt Crafton:

But now it's the way we do business. I mean, everybody uses GPS. You set up a base station. It receives a satellite signal. That signal gets sent out to survey instruments that are not too far from that base, and you do your surveying. That one is very accurate.

Matt Crafton:

Then nowadays, unmanned aerial systems doing different types of things from the air using drones to survey the ground. And we're using different types of instruments to do that. Some cameras, and there's a technology called LIDAR. It's basically a laser scanning technology that sends out a laser beam, scans things, and creates extremely fine detailed images.

Matt Crafton:

So it just continues to go and go. I think today we've got six drones flying in our company doing surveying for all different types of clients. We can do aerial photographs, and detailed topographic surveys with a drone.

Robert Wagner:

I mean, it's not just giving you pictures, right? It's giving you measurements of things, is what I'm hearing.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah. You can do the pictures, and that's valuable if you're taking a photograph from the air. In our business, being able to look at something from the sky, and look down on it, that certainly aids in design work.

Matt Crafton:

But yeah, we can also use these instruments to scan the ground using a laser technology. And from that, we have, it's a whole computer process that takes that data, crunches it, and we can produce a topographic map from it.

Robert Wagner:

Wow, incredible. That's amazing. Are there advantages if you were starting a civil engineering firm today? In our world, in accounting, I mean, there's some advantages if you were starting one today, and you're sort of born digital, is the term. In your world, would that be true?

Matt Crafton:

I'd say yes and no. You're going to have an investment to start. I mean, you're going to have to buy that technology that'll allows you just entry into the marketplace. So you've got to have the CAD machines, the software that can produce your drawings for you, and all those design softwares that are going to help you with your calculations and stuff.

Matt Crafton:

If you're in surveying, all the instruments that I just talked about. You're not going to want to enter the marketplace with something that's 20 or 30 years old technology. And so from that perspective, it's kind of challenging. Because that money's going to have to come from somewhere to buy those things, and make that investment, and then make it pay off for you.

Matt Crafton:

On the other hand, yeah, I think there's some advantages to new folks entering the marketplace. There's probably not an ideal company size, every size company has its own challenges. But if you're small, you can be very agile. You can make quick decisions and go a direction pretty quickly. So I think that's an advantage.

Robert Wagner:

We're heading to the close of our time together. I wanted to give you the opportunity though, just to talk about, during your tenure at Crafton Tull, as CEO in particular, what's the achievement or milestone of the company that you're most proud of?

Matt Crafton:

It's been a lot. It's hard [crosstalk 00:34:46]

Robert Wagner:

You don't have to limit it to one.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah, I was going to say, it's going to be hard to limit it to one thing. Surviving the recession, may be a milestone. I think we're feeling pretty good about things right now.

Matt Crafton:

And like I said, one of the lessons we learned in the recession was, it's not all to our credit. The reason we're doing so good right now is maybe some of us, but it's also we've got a great market to work in.

Matt Crafton:

And so we're very fortunate that the economy is good, and that the economy is good for our clients. Our oil and gas clients are doing well right now, thankfully. Our state DOT is doing good.

Matt Crafton:

The citizens of Arkansas have supported supporting our Department of Transportation with funding, so that it can do projects. Which turns out to be good for us, and allows us to employ people. And just our local market is really good.

Matt Crafton:

We feel good about where we're at. So I don't know. Milestone achievements, that's kind of hard to pin down. Hard to say one thing.

Robert Wagner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Well, Matt, I want to thank you very much for being with us today. And we ask five questions of every guest. So are you ready?

Matt Crafton:

Fire away.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Matt Crafton:

I have no idea what's coming.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. What was the first way you made money?

Matt Crafton:

I was mowing lawns. Yeah, my dad never paid me to work around the house. He had some horses, and we had a pretty big place where I grew up, but that was not a paying job. That was just to keep the roof over my head.

Matt Crafton:

So I think my first paying job was mowing lawns. I had a little 1982 Chevy pickup truck, and I had some ramps that my dad and I built. And so I could get that lawnmower into the back of that truck and drive all over Rogers and mow lawns for people.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah, that was the first way. I spent one summer working at a Walmart distribution center. It was a good job, and I appreciated half it, but it was pretty tough work at the time. But most of my summer jobs were just mowing lawns out there.

Robert Wagner:

So if you were not doing what you're doing, what would you be doing?

Matt Crafton:

Hmm. Good question. I got out of active duty Air Force after eight years and transitioned into the Air Force reserves. And there have been times when I thought maybe I should have stayed in and done a full 20, 25, 30-year career like a lot of my friends did. But I'm glad that I went down the path that I did.

Matt Crafton:

I don't know. Probably maybe working in some other government, maybe working for the DOT or one of our local municipalities as an engineer maybe. I don't know. Hard to say.

Robert Wagner:

But you'd be an engineer.

Matt Crafton:

I'd be an engineer. I think it's just who I am. Unfortunately for my wife. I'm an engineer. It just fits my personality, the way I look at life. I like to solve problems and get into the details of things. And so that's just what engineers do. That's me.

Robert Wagner:

Gotcha. What would you tell your 20-year-old self?

Matt Crafton:

I would tell myself several things. I would say, "Enjoy. Don't always just have your eyes on the horizon." Because I tended to do that. I tended to look out where I wanted to be further on down the road.

Matt Crafton:

That's okay. That's fine. But enjoy where you're at as well. And so enjoy the place you are, wherever that might be. And enjoy that time in your life, because it'll be gone someday.

Robert Wagner:

Right. Yeah. You blink and it's gone.

Matt Crafton:

Yup.

Robert Wagner:

Matt, what would the title of your book be?

Matt Crafton:

Oh my. The Luckiest Man Alive, I guess. I've always just considered myself lucky. Had a great mother and father and a place to grow up, and a great childhood growing up in Rogers, Arkansas. And I got to go to the Air Force Academy and become an engineer.

Matt Crafton:

So I just feel lucky. A lot of folks don't get to have those opportunities, and so I'm very thankful that I had that chance to do that.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Okay. That's good. That's a good title. Last question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Matt Crafton:

My dad gave lots advice. So [crosstalk 00:39:41]

Robert Wagner:

That's what dads are.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah, that's right. And it was always good. He always gave good advice. And I think one of the things that he told me growing up was, "Don't ever ask somebody to do something you're not willing to do yourself." And so I've always taken that to heart. If we're asking our folks to get their time sheets done on time, then I'd better be doing that.

Matt Crafton:

If we're asking our folks here at Crafton Tull to do certain things... We've got to do our quality control process. Well, when Matt Crafton works on a project, I'm sure that my project goes through the quality control process, and it's documented. I want somebody to look at that.

Matt Crafton:

You've got to lead by example. And so if you expect somebody to do something, then, as the leader, you've got to be the one, and they've got to be able to see it. That you're right there with them doing it in the trenches with them.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. So I'm going to digress a second.

Matt Crafton:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Do you do some projects still?

Matt Crafton:

Occasionally I get to. And in fact, I had red pens out yesterday with plans spread all over my desk, and I was marking up some stuff. Engineering is fun. It's the funnest part of my job. So occasionally they let me work on some stuff.

Matt Crafton:

And so yesterday I was designing some storm sewer on a road here in Rogers. So occasionally I get to do that. Been involved in some studies for the city of Rogers. We have two or three clients that I kind of tend to, and help manage. And so I keep my nose into their projects.

Matt Crafton:

But that's kind of rare. 90 something percent of my time is more running the business. But I do enjoy the engineering. It's fun.

Robert Wagner:

Sure. Okay. Well Matt, thanks again so much for being with us today. I really appreciate the time.

Matt Crafton:

I do too. This has been fun.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. Thanks.

Matt Crafton:

Thank you.

Robert Wagner:

That's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play, or Stitcher. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3:

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