65. Jeff Wilkie – HoganTaylor – Managing Remote Teams

Jeff Wilkie:

... and as a facilitator, I've had to really be able to read that. And to be able to utilize the tools that exist on Teams or on Zoom, if people do want to speak up. So I've learned how to watch the little border around pictures to know that people are trying to speak, or people use those little emojis or icons like raising your hand or clapping or whatever, to try to just bring life into it

Aaron Ackerman:

From Hogan Taylor, I'm Aaron Ackerman, and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. On each episode of the show, we sit down with business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens. Welcome everyone to another episode of How That Happened. My guest today is Jeff Wilkie and our show today is going to be a little bit different. First, let me tell you a little bit about Jeff. Jeff is a principal at Hogan Taylor and runs our human capital and organizational strategy's practice. He's been in that role for about seven years because he and I started around the same time. So Jeff, thanks for joining today.

Jeff Wilkie:

Great to be with you.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, so I'm excited about our format. It's a little bit different. What we're going to do today is Jeff and I are going to revisit some clips from past episodes. And we've picked some clips that really center around things that I think are really relevant right now, remote work, hybrid work, managing a remote team, even great resignation. We're going to talk about some of these things and Jeff, when I first talked to you about doing this, I wonder if this is a little too late, we've been doing this for a long time. Companies have wrestled with this, but as you and I talked, I think it's really very timely because most organizations have learned a lot. We've learned a lot, not only just with our own experience, but working with clients. And as we now emerge from the pandemic, things are different and will probably stay different for a long time, if not permanently in some cases.

Aaron Ackerman:

So I think for that reason, it's really timely and look forward to getting your insights on this. I know you've done a lot of research, done a lot of working with clients consulting and... All right, good deal. Let's jump right in. So the first two clips that we've got, I'll just set those up a little bit. This is going to be Jennifer Wilson. Jennifer, for people that have heard the episode before may remember, but she is a co-founder of a consulting and coaching company called Convergence Coaching. And her company is a small company. They've been remote for a long time. Well, really since inception. And so she's got some unique insights, so let's play that clip and then we will discuss it on the other side.

Aaron Ackerman:

I know that at Convergence, you, your colleagues, your support staff, everybody is fully remote. You don't have a central location. You guys are distributed. Did you set out to do that in the beginning? Did that just happen or was that really your vision for what you wanted to do at convergence?

Jennifer Wilson:

It was our vision from the start. I've worked remotely from my employer since 1995 or something like that. And I never felt like it hampered my performance in my work and it didn't impact my client relationships or my team relationships because those are all based on communication and communication doesn't actually require physical proximity. And so when we started this business, there was no intention to ever have a lease and no intention to be landlocked on who I could hire.

Jennifer Wilson:

I didn't want to have to have my hiring pool be physically local to me. And then at that was going to be a limiter. And in fact, in the work that we do, which is super privileged and requires that we really get in there and intimate, vulnerable subjects with our folks and help business CPA firms and consulting firms with their problems. So we have to talk about problems. It requires a level of intimacy that a lot of people would think could only be achieved in person. But in truth, we learned how to do it remotely, how to have those conversations remotely before there was video via the telephone. And then of course, a fair amount of in person. We do travel because of our remote structure. But boy, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. A lot of interesting stuff there, Jeff, she talks a little bit about just the logistics of systems and how you can carry on remote work. Also, she talks about some of the advantages or benefits that she feels like their company's had from being a remote company. So I don't know what stuck out to you there? What do you want to talk about, about that clip?

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah, a couple of things. I have to just laugh. Do you remember when telecommuting was only for the best of the best? You had to really be a high, high performer in order to get to do that. That was actually a criterion. But we found really quickly when the pandemic hit, it didn't matter. We just needed people to be able to keep working. The biggest thing that jumps out to me that she talks about is this whole thing with talent. We just experienced this ourself. We were looking in our markets. And what we found is now that we're a remote workforce, a hybrid, that we can actually find talent in other locations that don't have to be local to us because a lot of the work that our clients are requiring really can be done remotely. And we're actually even finding ourselves talking about that with clients when they're requesting help or assistance.

Jeff Wilkie:

And you have to have a pretty good understanding and breadth of knowledge in human resources, compliance in some of those areas across states when you do that. But yeah, absolutely. If I need help in one market, it doesn't mean that I always have to find somebody there. It's a bonus, but we've actually found that we can get great talent outside of that. And to her point, a lot of the work that we do is having these crucial conversations with teams, with the leaders. And I was in that camp we have to be in person. I have to be able to see that person's face, watch their body language, that kind of a thing. Yeah. But video allows us to do that. I think phone, just phone only, is super difficult, but that video component has been huge.

Jeff Wilkie:

And I facilitate some training programs over the internet now and we do it virtually. And as a facilitator, I've had to really be able to read that and to be able to utilize the tools that exist on Teams or on Zoom, if people do want to speak up. So I've learned how to watch the little border around pictures to know that people are trying to speak or people use those little emojis or icons. Like raising your hand or clapping or whatever, to try to just bring life into it.

Jeff Wilkie:

But I find it fascinating that people that were already doing it before have really appreciated it and moved into that. Another comment that I heard her talk about is just the technology and needing the technology be there. I remember we were an early adopter. Our IT department is great, you know that. But we were in an early adopter of Teams and I thought to myself, "Oh my gosh, another application? Are you kidding me? We have enough. Enough." But I found it to be so seamless for us right after that March 11th date, when the NBA game, you remember seeing that? It was like, "Okay, it's starting." And we went fully remote and we had that application already. Didn't you think that was just seamless for us?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Well, you know what was fascinating to me with our experience at Hogan Taylor, and I think this would not be that unique to us, but it's something like work from remote, work anywhere, this hybrid flexible concept was something we'd already been talking about. But it wasn't really pushed into practice very, very rapidly or very much. Well, you had to figure out how to do it almost overnight. And we're fortunate that we're able to serve clients with out being in person, a lot of companies that are in a knowledge base or service based business could do that pretty easily. But still how quickly companies adapted, even companies that rely on some in person you think about restaurants, how innovative they were almost immediately to do different things that they just hadn't really done before, the parking lot pickup and they changed their drive-thru procedures and delivery procedures. And all these things happened so quickly that-

Jeff Wilkie:

It's just the good will too though. The good will that we had for everybody and trying to keep everyone afloat. That was a big part of it as well is people were like, "Yeah, we're scared. We're having to quarantine. We're having to make sure that we don't go to these public places, but these entities still matter in our communities. And we're really going to jump in and help them and provide this good will and seek their services. Even though it doesn't look the same. So we were willing. We were willing to say, "You know what? It doesn't have to look like in person. It could be takeout." So I didn't mean to interrupt you there, but I just think that's a big part of it is a community's good will yeah to enable it to occur.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. And just the ability to be able to pivot really quickly when you have to. Yeah. If that had not happened, we might, as a society and business communities might have ended up somewhere where we are now 10 years, 20 years later, but we did it in a month.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. And what I think is also really interesting if you look at our clients, what we're also realizing is look even the clients were like, "We are mission critical. We can't be down. We are a part of this group of organizations that we have to be on site, in person, no matter what. So we're critical the infrastructure to keep occurring." Even they have started realizing that there are positions that really can be hybrid and don't have to be there all the time. That actually it's more effective in some ways for them to be at home. So isn't it interesting how we saw that paradigm just totally crash?

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh yeah.

Jeff Wilkie:

That, "I have to see you every day. You have to be here where I can watch you." Or so on and so forth. And I don't mean that organizations are big brother, but I don't know. There's an accountability with being seen.

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I'm thinking of a client right now that I know about, you probably have some too, that have not really adopted or adapted to that. They really have that, "I want to see the rear ends in the seat and that's how I know you're working." And they're really struggling to keep the people that they've got or to track new people because that paradigm shift has happened whether the employers have shifted or not, the employees have. And it's almost just a requirement at this point that, "Oh, you're going to require of me to be in a chair somewhere from eight to five, not interested. I'll look somewhere else."

Jeff Wilkie:

It's true. And if you don't have that rock solid reason why, if there's not a purpose to that, then you as the leader who are trying to enforce this, it's really hard because you don't really have a position to speak from as to the why. And I think that why continues to be a really important question that we have to answer.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay, let's listen to another clip from Jennifer. Again, she goes a little deeper into some topics I want to talk about with remote and hybrid work. Here is the next clip.

Jennifer Wilson:

... to maintain a certain culture. And you have to be very intentional. And a lot of organizations where we fall down as communication, tends to be hit and miss. And the communication is as good as the leader's thoughts of communication. And with a remote team, communication cannot be hope we have some. It has to be super intentional. And so we maintain our culture with a number of communication mechanisms. One is something we call our work to-do list, but we're a small team. We're a team of 11 people. So it's not like I'm trying to do this with a hundred, but if I was I'd break them into teams of 10 or 11 or 12 or 15, and we'd still be doing this. So it's completely applicable to a bigger business for sure. But we publish our intention for our work to do our deliverables, our output that will occur this week. And we publish it in a single thread and somebody starts it usually on Sunday night and it's not assigned whoever's working and organizing themselves.

Jennifer Wilson:

And then we all latch onto it. And by the end of Monday night, we've all sort of said, "Here's what my week holds." And you think that you could get that from a project list and from our calendar. So it's not meant to replace those things. We use those too. It's meant to more say, "This is the size of my workload. And here are my interdependencies this week." This is what's coming to you. We highlight people's names in a certain color. If it's coming to you or I'm waiting on you, that's a different color. And that helps us coordinate those interdependencies and also have empathy for what's happening with each other. But the most important part of that communication is the cover note that we all put on it that says, "Here's what's happened to me this last week and this weekend, here's what happened to me. And here are my prayer requests and here are the things I'm worried about. And here are pictures of my kids graduation, our wedding." And it is a way of keeping really connected personally.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right. That's good stuff, Jeff. So just for me to be transparent, I feel like as a leader, I really had some weak blind spots exposed, trying to lead a remote team. I think it's a lot different. She mentioned the word intentional three, four times, I think. So talk a little bit about the challenges of being remote from a leadership standpoint. She talked about culture. I know that's some of the things that we struggle with, how can we not be physically with our people as much as we're used to, but yet still maintain the things that we think are special about our organizational culture, that feeling of connectedness. I think there's a real risk that if you're asleep at the wheel, that could really become an issue.

Jeff Wilkie:

Oh, without a doubt. And I would say it's most important right now. And I'll talk about a couple of things, but really your high performers, the people that have been just really killing it for you? They're the ones that you're not going to pay attention to. And they're the ones that are going to get picked off because they're being so highly recruited, highly sought after. High performers, and what we did in the past is we just kind of said, "Hey, no news is good news. If I don't hear from them, I think they're fine. We need to move forward." But this intentionality is really, really important. And I think it is critical that you are using time and creating structure, check in with people and even intentional about informal time, where you're just hanging out and you are just sharing with each other what's happening.

Jeff Wilkie:

One of the things I noticed at least happen for me to be transparent like you is, I really had to worry pretty consistently about taking care of an elderly parent. She is awesome. She does great. She's totally on her own, but it did worry me and concern me that now she can't get out at all. She doesn't have any type of focus. So that factor on top of making sure that I was keeping our team up and running, that our organization was functioning. And then the client facing stuff that we do, where our clients are bringing their worries and concerns. It was overwhelming. So to be able to talk to my team about that and to be vulnerable and say, "There is a lot going on with our clients, with our team, but also, hey, yeah, for me, this is what I'm dealing with."

Jeff Wilkie:

That becomes really important. And the that's another one of those pieces I was like, "That doesn't happen in a remote environment. You don't get close. You don't really get that." But you do. Because what we do is we allow each other to see into our souls a little bit, and the kinds of things that really do concern us, that worry us. And I think having that is going to be so critically important. An the other thing that I think is pretty important as well is this is really a time where people are picking sides. And I hate to say it, but we are becoming a society that's very polarized. We are either thinking one way or another other. And we wrote an article several months ago, just on this idea of getting back into work or even if you're not into work to just really practice space and grace, meaning you have to give people the space and the understanding that we're going to disagree.

Jeff Wilkie:

We're not always going to be okay. Where someone might need affiliation like me and have to be in the office and see people. Other people don't need that. And that's okay. We can provide the space for them to be effective in that way. And in the grace department is we are going to share opinions. We just do that. That's part of being friends and being colleagues and peers is we just share our perspective. We have to be open to that and not take sides ourselves. Not disagree or don't find ourselves in a place where we can't really fully communicate. And that really starts to erode trust. If I can't share my opinion with you and I can't hear you, but the old days of not talking about religion or politics, that totally went out the window. It just comes up.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned space and grace. So that was a concept you coined for us at Hogan Taylor internally. And it's our guiding principle as we started bringing people back to the office more. And it's really simple, but it's profound in the sense that you could come up with every scenario. What if this, what if that, what if somebody this, what if that, but if you just say, "I'm going to allow space and grace, and I'm going to expect the same from you." That all washes away all those different scenarios.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. Because just think about how different we are. You and I have grown kids, they are really self sufficient, but I have members of my team that had 4, 5, 6 year olds. As the numbers rose and dipped, rose and dipped, that affected their childcare. So I had to be really flexible in the fact that we're on a video call and they have a little four year old coworker. Not really, but you know, they're walking in going, "Mom, I need a snack or, "Hey dad, what about this?" Ad so on and so forth. And so having that grace to just know that everybody's indifferent positions is so important. You probably experienced that?

Aaron Ackerman:

Oh yeah.

Jeff Wilkie:

Just how different people were.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well, so it's funny. I've talked to leaders of organizations where they said I've had employees come talk to me and said if we don't mandate vaccinations, they're going to quit. And the same organization had people come to the leader and if you do mandate vaccinations, I'm going to quit. So people have a principled stand, their total opposite. But in reality, most people's values are pretty similar, but some of these topics have just, like you said, become polarized and people are very opinionated about it. And it's hard to really embrace the space and grace, because my opinion's right.

Jeff Wilkie:

And just think about this. So the last real pandemic we had was in 2009, you remember the old H1N1. It scared everybody to death. And we haven't really been impacted like this. This is a global pandemic. This is a global emergency the way in which we reacted. So I always just have to say, "Look, we're writing the script as we're acting it out. We're blocking as we are in the play, if you will." And so that's the other things we have to just say, "Okay, we've never done this before. This is new. This is different. We're going to make mistakes." And that's the other thing I loved about our firm is that I just felt like we made mistakes. We learned from those mistakes and we just gave everybody some grace to figure it out. And I think it's what helped us to continue our success.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, no, that's great. And I know you've shared that concept with clients as well. And I think if you don't have that, whether you call it that or something else, if you don't have that mindset and that spirit, there's going to be conflict and people, like you said, taking sides and it gets tribal.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. And I think too, you have to really think about it from a business standpoint, too. As we walked in, I have an opinion, I have a perspective, but when I walk in and help clients, I have to really be that neutral party based on what their need is, their paradigm, what they're working on and really help them to work into that.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Okay. Good stuff. All right. The next clip is actually from one of Robert's episodes, Robert Wagner, who co-hosts with us and his guest was George McGehrin. George, I believe is a executive level talent recruiter in New York. And so he's got a different perspective as well, that I think is interesting. So let's listen to his clip and then we'll discuss.

Robert Wagner:

Okay, George let's come into the current setting that we're in. So while we're recording, we're still in the COVID era. We're hoping to emerge soon, but the whole work from home thing has happened. And I'm wondering what you're seeing and what you think's going to happen. And one of the things that's being talked about, I guess, is work from home, and then work from anywhere. So even companies like Hogan Taylor are thinking about why does it matter where someone lives? It opens up the potential talent pool to us, potentially nationwide. But I'm wondering from your perspective, thinking about the C-suite, is work from anywhere. Is that going to be a reality where companies have C-suite leaders who are not at headquarters?

George McGehrin:

I'll speak about this just from a smaller business standpoint. We've been fully remote since 2009, my company. In 2009, I'd lost all my clients for financial institutions and banks. And at one time I had 50 people and literally in a two day period, I got a call from all these places. And they pretty much said, "Hey, George, the party's over." And I let go of 50 people. Back then I had offices. I had all these offices, just the way it was supposed to be done. And desks and computers. And it took me a while to rebuild, but I thought, "How can I do this better?" And one of the biggest problems I had was getting rid of the office space, it was really difficult for me.

George McGehrin:

So I decided to from then on just invest in systems. And we're not your typical Salesforce user, but we use Salesforce, for example, for a 40 firm it's not really a [inaudible 00:24:22] customer. But I think a lot of the smaller companies, I can tell you first night off, it's nice not having to pay for chairs and desks and computers and other things. And I think there's a lot of benefits, especially with the technology, I've got a guy right now that lives in South America. He's an American guy, but now he's in Florida. Another guy is in England right now. We actually encourage it.

George McGehrin:

I think when you get to a larger size company, maybe the team will be working from home, but I think you're going to see ton. You see it now already, I see with all of these Zoom video meetings. But I think at the end of the day, I think you're going to have a lot of the guys and girls running the show are old, they're not 30 years old. Most of them are in their forties or fifties or sixties. And I think while they appreciate flexibility, I also think that they're used to having an office and an environment, where you can have people. I think it works for a 40 person firm. I don't know if it's going to work for a 10,00 person firm. A company where you've got a core 50 to 100 people who run things. I just think that you're always going to have that office space, you're going to need it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay, Jeff, he's got some interesting things there. One thing he talks quite a bit about is just the physical office space. So what are you hearing from clients? What are you telling clients about the need for office space or how people are thinking about office space going forward?

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah, it's varied. I will just tell you, I always just think of the word home base. And I always go back to being a kid and playing tag, and you always had home base. So you could run around wherever, but you had this place that was safe, secure. You always came back to it. I think we are going to need that in some organizations, but it's think about how we become a click and submit society. Everything that we do, we click and submit. We order, especially our retail experience when we need things. You know it has to be really bad when you have to actually call somebody, When you have to get on a chat, you're like, "Oh man, it's such a drag." You don't want to do it, but you have to. I think in the same ways, when we gather people, it has to be back to Jen's intentional.

Jeff Wilkie:

What are we talking to people about? What is the focus? How can we combine some things that they need or want in that meeting from a mental health, from a benefit standpoint. Maybe it's a tool or something that helps them to do their work better at home. We're always going to need home base. And I'm going to usually expect that the C-level suite is going to be centered there. That they'll still be in a hybrid possibly. But I think it will be important for that group of people to stay connected in person together. So and so forth. And I think when we come together, we'll have to create those moments of meetings, checking in on projects, celebrating people. People get certifications, they have accomplishments. We need to make sure that when we're present, we need to celebrate those things.

Jeff Wilkie:

But yes, they'll always need that. And even if they don't need a space, I have noticed there are many, many coworking places that are offering to host teams to come in. That quarterly, they have a moment where they're now co-working, they all come together. But we were early adopters of the hoteling. Our Oklahoma city office does this super well where they come in and they schedule their time to be a part of that office. But you notice that people still have to have a place to come into, but that's not everybody. I'm seeing a rising number of people that are okay never, ever coming in to an office. But I think we have to be really careful because I think the narrative is everybody wants that. Everybody. And I'll be the first person to, I have to have affiliation. I have to see people, I have to have this interaction.

Aaron Ackerman:

So yeah. That's interesting. So do you think that is personality driven? Is it more a generational thing? It's a broad brush here, but what do you think about that?

Jeff Wilkie:

I think it's both. Now let me follow me on this. For a long time we talked about social distancing. We have to social distance. The reality is that's really physical distancing. We're staying away from each other. We had to be really careful. Even the people that don't want to see anybody or come in, it's super easy to get isolated. And what do you think you do when you get isolated? You stop hearing from people and then, "Oh, I'm going to go online. I'm going to look. See what's going on. I'm going to join this group. Whatever." I think it's one of the main reasons why we're having trouble keeping our talent is I don't think it's just a matter of how much more they're making or the opportunities for remote. I think it's the isolation and the lack of social touch, if you will, that making sure know that we see them, we hear them.

Jeff Wilkie:

They're important. And I know that's touchy-feely and again, that's something that maybe we don't always like to think about, but in this new day and age we have to. So again, back to what George said, I think we're going to have a home base. It's going to look differently. Not everybody will have an office, but if they want to have an office and if that's what makes them happy, then we are going to flex and adapt to that. I think it's the back to the one size fits one, man. It's just about really thinking in a different way about what people need and want and trying to meet that need reasonably within our resources, so that they can feel good about what they're doing.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I do think it's probably market by market. I know a lot of people I've been talking to in our markets are not wanting to abandon having a physical location. But they're rethinking how much space do we need? What does it need to look like? How should it be designed? I think all of those things are being rethought, reimagined to some extent, because if we are in a hybrid world where you talk about home base, that's the way we've approached it for most of our employees. You're either home base, at home, or away from the office, which doesn't mean you never come to the office.

Aaron Ackerman:

Or you home base at the office, which doesn't mean you're never somewhere else. But you have your home base, but it's going to look different where right now the people I see in the office in Oklahoma City are a different mixture of people every day. There's a small number of people that are always there just about every day. But then there's some people you see once or twice a week, and you may see the same number of people every day, but they're different people. So I just think I've heard a lot about office space being not, well, we are never going to need a lease again, but more how much do we need and what does that need to look like and where does it need to be and all that kind of stuff.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. And really asking the question probably on an annual basis, like, "Have you been in the office? Have you not been in the office? You had this intention, are you doing that? Are things changing?" So on and so forth? So I do think probably giving a greater focus to facilities, also the coordination of facilities, I think we need to have people out there today who are just constantly thinking about how do we stagger people coming in, going out, managing the space. And I don't think we haven't done that in a way, but I think that's probably something that you're going to see occurring in terms of occupation is people that are helping to coordinate that movement.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Our last clip is from Tiffany Hatcher. Who's president of CrossFirst Bank in Tulsa. She has a lot of really interesting comments about talent acquisition and the great resignation. And this is something I'm thinking about a lot. I know everybody is because we already touched on talent. It's a real advantage potentially to be able to recruit talent from anywhere, not just in your geography, but the flip side of that is other organizations outside our markets are targeting our talent. And so it's a double-edged sword there. But she's got some really interesting comments. Let's listen to her and then we'll discuss us on the other side.

Robert Wagner:

I had this epiphany this morning, we're doing our semiannual check-ins with folks and going through their goals, things that you're talking about. And I was talking with a colleague and they were talking about a couple of their goals got sidetracked because key people on the team for these initiatives left. Well, they left. And it is a hidden cost of turnover. Because initiatives that we have stall. Or they stall or they go away. Because the leader or key players, you have to replace them, bring them up to speed and things like that. So I can just think about in your organization, the strengths thing, where it's so important, such an important part of the daily life and relating to one another. When you lose someone, you lose all that knowledge that you've built into them around their strengths. These are just huge costs of turnover.

Tiffany Hatcher:

It is. And I talk about that all the time is a leadership identity for me is I spend all day investing in people. That's what I'm talking about. And so it's huge. And please know, we're like any other company, we're all having trouble with the great resignation. And so the competition is just throwing money, people and talent, just because the talent pool's just not where it needs to be. But I will tell you a story, the last two hires that we hired and great talented bankers, one of them you know, she said to me, the reason why she came, she had three offers on the table, very competitive offers.

Tiffany Hatcher:

And she said the reason why she came to CrossFirst was because of the culture. And so everything that we had talked about, so I've been really, really trying to market our bank from culture being number one, the ability to win business, because everybody wants to make sure that they can be successful. And then community. And so if you read about the great resignation and the three things that are the most important to talent today, it's those three things. And those just happen to align with what's important to me and our team in Tulsa. And so I just really focus on that.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. Jeff, good stuff there. Yeah. So I want to touch on one thing she was talking about with the culture at CrossFirst and how that was a real attractive thing for people they were recruiting. But before we talk about that side, I want to talk about the other side, having your talent recruited away and this concept of now that we're in this great resignation period, having to re-recruit the people that we have here. Talk about that a little bit.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. It's really, really important. And I just feel like our keyword for this whole podcast should be intentionality, intentional. Because it is about making a point to check in with people and make sure that they are still aligned with what brought them to your organization in the first place, which is your culture. For us, ours is about unity, service and dynamic. So we continue to talk about that with our teams and with the people that make up those teams, because we really want to make sure that they stay aligned with that. I do think we're in a place where it may be good for people to check themselves. And if they aren't in alignment with that anymore, hen you don't really want them. You want them to explore and see what else is out there and find an organization that is better aligned with them.

Jeff Wilkie:

So I have a tendency to think of that as an opportunity rather than something that is a bad thing. And yet I do think if we are not checking in with people and making sure that the value alignment occurs, we can get into big trouble. I also think that asking and making sure that people are doing what makes them happy, what fulfills them is really, really important. And also just checking to make sure that you have the right kind of work for them that keeps them fulfilled. So it is really important. I've noticed too, Aaron, it's not an old concept, but when you first hear it, you're like, "Really?" But now I think it's probably more impactful than ever is stay interviews. I don't know if you've heard about those before, but it's really interviewing people that are highly enthusiastic, very optimistic, totally committed to what you're doing.

Jeff Wilkie:

And really just checking in with them to say, "Hey, what's going on? What's happening?" Or even people that you feel like have isolated themselves that stay on the periphery, I think have to just check in with them and go, "Hey, I haven't heard from you or I've noticed your enthusiasm, everything okay. Everything all right?" And sometimes you can find that they're like, "Well, actually, I'm struggling or I've really been having a difficult time." Or they will give you a sense of that. And that's when we find out what it is that we need to do if we do want to make sure that we keep that employee, we want to retain them. We'll have to be flexible and adaptive to what we do. But yeah, probably now more than ever, if you're not talking to your employees, once, twice, three times a week, even if they are hybrid, you need to be making a point to do that.

Aaron Ackerman:

So one thing she said that really resonated with me was about just the sense of feeling connected, which I will back her up on, she cited a study or whatever, but I recently listened to two people from Harvard business review. Really, they gave a podcast about a study that they had done. And the thing with the great resignation is a lot of people are getting raises. But when you talk to people, that's usually not in the top one or two or three things that made them want to leave current job.

Aaron Ackerman:

And it's really about being connected with your coworkers, being connected to your work and the mission of your organization and having a sense of community. And there was a lot of loss of community and loss of connectedness during the pandemic and some companies I'm sure did better than others back to the theme word of intentional. You are not going to accidentally have people feel connected to each other and to the organization when they're working remotely and there's just no communication. But what has been your experience or what advice are you giving thinking about out with regards to just that sense of connectedness?

Jeff Wilkie:

Absolutely. And I can't think of the right C word, because I feel like we need another C word for this, but it's just talking to people about what are the opportunities, what's career path for you? I think the other thing that people saw happen within the pandemic was now, it just feels like my career is totally shut down. Like I don't see the vision of where I want to go, the possibilities that are in front of me. So I think we have to also just talk about where their career is going. Not only how they're doing today, but what are the possibilities/ because that's the other things that's luring people away is well, I don't see the next step in the career ladder. Tell me what that is, where am I going to go? What am I going to do?

Jeff Wilkie:

How am I going to continue to improve and raise the level of my skills to keep progressing forward? And I don't know about you, but it really felt like all of that just came to a screeching halt. It's like, whoa, hang on. And we're even seeing organizations that are flattening. So those levels that we thought we were going to don't exist any longer. And so I think that's where the salary comes into play. Because I'm now going to make as much as I would've had I gotten to this next level, but I'm not changing my title. I'm just keeping my same responsibilities and maybe growing them a little bit. Does that make sense?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So yeah. I want to touch on that, but before we leave this, this is unscientific, just my anecdotal observation, but it's hard to really put your finger on the great resignation. I think there's dozens of reasons why people are leaving. Yeah. It's not like you can point to just, oh, it's all because of money. It's all this or whatever. You've got inflation, you've got wages. That's a part of it. You've also got people that maybe have just realigned their values over the last two years and they don't want to spend as much time working or maybe they're a two income household and they have realized they can get by with one income. There's all these different reasons. And so it's hard to treat everyone the same because people's personal reasons for making a decision could be fast different.

Jeff Wilkie:

Absolutely. Just think about how much time people spent by themselves. The reflection without having all these other voices. We use our work community to bounce ideas off of right. My really close confidants. I talked to them about, hey, I'm thinking about this. I'm thinking about that. So and so forth. And we didn't really have those opportunities as much. So we ended up listening a lot to ourselves, maybe talking to our partners, our spouses and asking the question, "What do you think I should do? There's this opportunity." And quite frankly, man, we adapted in so many ways and people were like, you know what? I can change. I can do things differently. They're not as opposed to that.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well, there's no data to support this, but I have a theory that for some people you go through those list of reasons, which could be financial and others, all these reasons. I actually think there's some segment of people that have just had COVID fatigue for two years and life just has become, I don't know, boring or a little bit dissatisfying. And what's the easiest thing in your life to change. It's hard to change your living situation. It's hard to change your family situation, but I can get a new job next week.

Jeff Wilkie:

Oh. And when you're getting pummeled with all these openings and they're coming to across your email or recruiters are calling you, it's huge, man. I think there's-

Aaron Ackerman:

To some extent, some people may not even be dissatisfied with their job. It's just the easiest thing to change and they just need something new and fresh in their life. And that's the lowest hanging fruit.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. I love what Tiffany said about just really investing in people. And I think probably now more than ever, we have to do that. Some of us it's easier than, than it is for others. But if you don't have this as a part of your leader toolkit where you're not creating these moments with people, I think you're really, really missing out. We did consistently when Randy did his CEO clips and then when our leader Robert Wagner would then do his own clip that aligned with that, alignment is so critical. That's the other thing is I think employees are really watching the leaders for clues and wondering, are we aligned? Is everything okay? Is it not okay? Is this the time to step out? No, everything's cool. We're making money. We're successful. I'm going to ride this out. I just think those are also really important things to consider.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. There may be some company or some industry out there that has been immune to the great resignation, but I don't know what it is. I haven't talked to anybody that hasn't felt this pinch in some way. And so I want to ask your take on just some really practical advice for listeners. Yeah. When you have several people leave, it almost creates this downward spiral of, "Oh my gosh, what's going on?" So the people who are still there are either thinking this is just more work I'm going to have to do, or am I the last rat on the sinking ship? It can really have a negative impact when maybe the messaging isn't really negative. How should leaders be thinking about in the old days, most companies would kind of send an email out to the team or people impacted by someone leaving, but then when you're getting one of those today and then there's another one tomorrow and two more next. Should we be thinking about that differently? How do we message that when you're losing team members?

Jeff Wilkie:

I think we do. And there's actually phenomenon called I quit. We all quit. And so what we're seeing, remember, you just talked about this plethora of opportunity that's out there today. Well, now we have groups actually talking to each other and actually making plans to quit together and that is a gig to the organization. So one of the things that is super easy is just make sure that you have a relationship with every one of your employees that transcends above just a shallow, Hey, just checking in. But really get to know them. And if you can forge that kind of relationship, still maintain the boss role. The level of authority that you need in order to command respect, and just make sure that you have good dialogue.

Jeff Wilkie:

I think you have to just make sure that you have good conversations with people that they know where you stand, what you think and really your clear view of what's occurring. I think it's really important just to say to people, "Hey, we know they got this great opportunity. They took it. We're excited for them." I think what absolutely harms us is if we take that moment in any way to down that person or talk about what they did or didn't do, or try to make it a moment where you think you can galvanize the group. I think that really turns people off. Opportunities are out there. So I just try to be as honest as I can about what's really happening. But what you need to do is to make sure that you understand where your salaries are in the market.

Jeff Wilkie:

So as a business owner, am I paying people what market is? Not these crazy, now this person's making 25% more than what they made before, but what is the market really telling you that people can make? And as long as you're staying within market, I would hold there. Even if you have really great talent that's going out there, you have to be really careful when you give that person that additional amount that you're staying equitable. Because then you get into trouble. Because now I'm paying you more than I'm paying somebody else and you're doing the same role. I have to make sure it, my narrative is clear. So sorry, compensation studies are huge. Yeah. You have to be able to do that and know where you stand. That's really a lot of work that we're doing today is just helping to validate companies on their compensation.

Jeff Wilkie:

We're doing that all across the country now. There are great tools that we can employ to really answer the question. Am I paying people enough for the work that they're doing? And we need to know the answer to that. I think you also have to really look at your organizational charts and ask the question, are we doing the right kind of work? Are people doing what they should be doing? And really looking at your workforce to ask the question, do we have the right amount of people? Do we need to increase the amount of people? Do we need to decrease the amount of people? And don't hear me say that layoffs are downsizings, but just realigning, making sure that you've got people in different places across the organization. So always good to review your organizational chart. And it's also really good to look at the competencies that you're requiring. Three things that we're seeing that people are looking the most for now is what I would call just adaptability change management.

Jeff Wilkie:

Can people turn on a dime because we've definitely learned that you have to be able to pivot, right? Number one. Yeah. Number two. I think people are looking for project management type skills because now I don't have the ability to walk in and see you and say, "Hey Aaron, where are you on this project?" So on and so forth, I'm actually asking you to do that via a tool or just staying cognizant of what you have committed to and making sure that you're doing that well. And I would say really the last one is just people that can create structure or create a plan from nothing.

Jeff Wilkie:

Because now instead of having all this ability to do these plans together and so on and so forth, I need more people who can take the initiative, create those plans themselves. So I think those are the things that we're seeing most, I would say definitely compensation, know where you stand, think about your organizational chart, how you're functioning, especially in a hybrid environment. And then third, just what are the competencies that are necessary and how are you screening people into the organization now that you've had these changes?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's great. And I'm glad you brought up the compensation and the word you've been doing with your team on compensation studies. I want to ask a specific question. So for any kind of similar positions, there's going to be a range of compensations for that position and that's going to be based on lots of things. It could [crosstalk 00:50:34] background, all this, performance. Yeah. You've also got situations where you've got open positions that you need to fill and you might have to reach a little bit to get something filled.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's all pretty normal. That's been going on forever. What seems new. At least to me. Is the willingness of employees to talk to each other about their compensation. And I was always brought up with that's a fireable offense. You don't talk to any other employee about what you make. But what I'm thing is especially gen Y and Z, they're an open book. They talk to each other about what they make, whether or not they're always honest about that, who knows, but that creates a lot of conversations with employees and employers or supervisors that didn't probably used to happen nearly as often.

Jeff Wilkie:

No, it is really amazing to see that. But even if they don't talk about specific numbers, what they're saying is, "Hey, I just got this amount. You should probably try to do this too." Because we're talking to each other about the fact that we're going to make this move. This company's paying me this much more. Oh, now I'm staying. Oh you are? So why are you saying, "Well, they gave me more money." And so now you're going, "Hey, why am I not getting more money?" That's that whole equity thing we talked about. And when you have someone that comes to you and says, "I got an offer, I'm going to have to make move. And you need to just really ask them is this really an offer? Are you willing for a counter? Or do you want to take this opportunity?"

Jeff Wilkie:

Because I think we also waste a lot of time trying to figure out what we can do when their heart's not in it. They don't really want to stick around. They want to do something different. But yeah, I would say that I still think there's a little population of people that don't really talk specifics, but they do say yes, I got an increase. Yes. This is what I'm getting. Or this is what I negotiated. And then that opens the door.

Jeff Wilkie:

So I have really been counseling a lot of employers, how critical is this person to your structure? Are they in a succession plan? So do you have bigger plans for them? Do they know that? Many times they don't know that they're in a succession plan or that you are you're cultivating them or helping them progress or you need to make a commitment to make that more visible, more active. Otherwise then you need to probably let that person move on. But it's so hard. Because we got so close to these people that stayed with us through the pandemic. We got to know them really well, but we'll see them around. We'll see them again.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. No that's good stuff. So that as we wrap up Jeff, I know we solidified around a couple of mantras, and I think that's really important. We talked about intentionality. There's great systems and mechanical tools to help us, whether it's Zoom or Teams or whatever, all these things that can help us communicate. But I think the system doesn't matter as much as just the spirit behind it.

Jeff Wilkie:

The human behind it that's creating it.

Aaron Ackerman:

So being intentional, I love your space and grace, I want to make sure we leave that with people. What other parting thoughts do you have?

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah, I think probably more than ever. It's really time to look at your workforce and ask questions about it. Do we have the right people? Do they have the right skill sets? Are we screening people to have these unique skill sets? Are we asking people about their ability to adapt? Are we asking for real examples of their ability to do that? And just looking at our workforce in a way that we haven't. We've really enjoyed boon recently with employers and clients, wanting to look at that they've engaged us to be a sounding board for them.

Jeff Wilkie:

And we are always here to be able to do that for our clients, but it's big and man, space and grace is going to be something that will just be a part of our vernacular, because what we've discovered is that people have very clear views. We're not going to change their minds, but we have to find a way to coexist whether it be in person or virtually. And so anything that we can do to help with those conversations or facilitate that paradigm where we allow that, we'd love to do that. But I think just little things like this that help us remember the new world that we're in and that we're functioning in is going to be really important. Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So what's the best way for somebody out there listening to this that wants to get in touch with you, learn more about the human capital and organizational strategies and the way you work with clients.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah. Really easy. So we've got our email, of course, jwilke@hogantaylor.com. You can go to our website, hogantaylor.com, and you can actually click human resources. And that actually takes you to our particular landing page. We have lots of things we're doing. One other thing I might just mention is we have an HR scorecard where we basically just identify what you're doing today in terms of your HR practice and baselining that so many people realize that, wow, we need an HR presence. We need to have somebody that comes alongside of us. We can operate in a fractional way for a small amount of time, or we can actually help you create an HR department help you recruit that group.

Jeff Wilkie:

And then they actually provide that function for you. So we got a lot of traffic, as you can imagine, when the pandemic first hit and people are asking the questions is, "How do we work remote? What does that look like? How do we take what's happening within these federal guidelines, make it work for us." So we have some pretty deep expertise. People who can help with some of those questions. And we just love our clients and try to think of anything that's happening that's that's going on out there to bring that value to them. And like you said, to start the conversation. People are now exploring hybrid environments where they didn't before and the world has changed. Definitely.

Aaron Ackerman:

For sure. Jeff, thanks so much for doing this. Yeah.

Jeff Wilkie:

Great to be with you.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. I appreciate your insights and just taking the time. So as you know, we have a few questions we like to ask all of our guests and-

Jeff Wilkie:

I think I'm ready.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. So the first one is what's the first way you ever made money?

Jeff Wilkie:

The first way I ever made money is I was a courtesy clerk at a grocery store, which are the sackers. And you learned that there are very specific ways that you sack groceries and there are very specific ways that customers like you to sack their groceries. And I learned that not only can you make a great wage, but if you are kind, courteous, you can actually earn a nice tip. And you have repeat customers who seek you out and make sure that they come through your lane or wherever you are. And I just learned how important it is to really provide great service, get to know people, great relationships. And there's a value you to that over time.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Very nice.

Jeff Wilkie:

Courtesy clerk. Sacker.

Aaron Ackerman:

So what would you be doing if you weren't at Hogan Taylor, you weren't in the HR world, you had taken a completely different career path.

Jeff Wilkie:

You know what? This is really funny you asked this. So I have two things if you'll allow me. So number one, I had a career early on in high school and college in musical theater and just theater. I'd love to be an actor. I just think it'd be really cool to be in plays and act. And maybe someday I'll get to do that. Maybe that's a post career opportunity. But the second thing I think I'd really like to do is I'd like to be a mediator. I think we are in a world now where we need peacemakers and people that can really help groups and organizations listen to each other.

Jeff Wilkie:

And so I have thought about how to take my facilitation skills and help to mediate conflict or opposing views to try to find consensus. That's one of the parts of our work, especially in strategic planning, I love is gaining consensus, helping people move forward. So the reality is that I see that so necessary in our world today, our people to help create peace or bring people to the table so that we can hear each other, because I just don't think we hear each other anymore. So those would be my two.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right. I like it. What would you like to go back and tell 20 year old Jeff Wilkie.

Jeff Wilkie:

I'd like to tell 20 year old Jeff Wilkie that he is not at the zenith of his potential, that he has a lot more ground to cover, but I was a pretty confident kid in college. I really was. And I didn't realize that, we use a word in at my church I go to and part of our core values there, one of them is confident humility, and I did not have the humility part. And humility and just being who you are and being authentic is really important for people. And I tried to put on a mask and be a person all the time and try to keep up that guise. But when you are just yourself, people like you for who you are. So I'd say be more yourself and it's going to happen for you. And I just wish I would've learned that a lot earlier.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's great. What is the title of your book, man?

Jeff Wilkie:

Man. That is a great question. The title of my book is Boundary Walkers. The reason that's the title of my book is I think people and I have found that you can be really effective when you're both strategic and tactical. And so I really like that idea and concept of just being able to do a little bit of both. Leaders are already going to do that more than ever is really think about not just the vision, but what are some of the steps they can take? So Boundary Walker.

Aaron Ackerman:

I like it. All right. What's the best advice you've ever received?

Jeff Wilkie:

The best advice I've ever received was actually in the form of a quote. And the quote is something that I know you've heard, because you're a customer guy. You're doing that function for us. And that is, "Perception is as real as reality itself." And my first real boss in a professional setting gave me that quote. And it really has helped me to understand, especially in the world of organizational development, how important messages are and what we do and what they really say. So we hear people say, well, optically, how's that going to look? And the reason we worry about stuff like that is we create a perception based off of what we see, the stimulus, That comes in through OUR rods and cones. So it's a cognitive thing. And then we base our judgments off of a few things without having data, like more information.

Jeff Wilkie:

Yep. my perception of you when I first met you was this guy is really confident, but he's warm. And thankfully that has really proven to be true. But sometimes perception could go the opposite way. You have a bad day, you show up, you had road rage, you came in, your first reactions to people were not positive. And if people don't know you, then they develop a perception that you're not warm. You're not caring. You're not a person that they want to engage with and it's just powerful. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Perception is reality. So you have to really make sure that either you are portraying your authentic self or you have an opportunity to tell people, "Hey, sorry that happened. This is what I was going through." So and so forth. Best advice. I got that when I was 22 years old and I'm 51 now. So it's stayed with me.

Aaron Ackerman:

It stuck with you. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. I appreciate. I always love talking to you because-

Jeff Wilkie:

You too man.

Aaron Ackerman:

... we have a lot in common, but we approach things differently as well. So thanks for your insights. I know you're doing great work with our clients and yeah, very much. Appreciate it.

Jeff Wilkie:

Thanks man.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Spotify, Google, Podcast, or Stitcher. Thanks for listening. This content is for information purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2022 Hogan Taylor LLP. All rights reserved. To view the Hogan Taylor general terms and conditions visit www.hogantaylor.com.