4. Erika and Chris Lucas - StitchCrew

Chris Lucas:

Because it's just important to surround yourself with a support network and peers and people who are interested in you, your success and can talk about your failures.

Erika Lucas:

Nobody builds companies alone because certainly believe that every company at every stage of their life cycle is going to face problems.

Aaron Ackerman:

From Hogan Taylor, I'm Aaron Ackerman and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. On each episode of the show, we sit down with business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens.

Aaron Ackerman:

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode. I'm really excited about my guests today. And yes I said guests. We've got a bonus, it's a two for one. We've got with us today Chris and Erika Lucas. And over the last couple of years, I have come to know these guys and just love spending time with them. High energy, really, really cool people and I'm excited to talk to them today.

Aaron Ackerman:

We'll jump right into it. But just a little bit of background, they've done a lot of really interesting stuff in their lives. They've been business owners. They've worked in government and policy making and a lot of cool stuff.

Aaron Ackerman:

But I want to start with is what they're doing right now. So Chris and Erika, you guys right now. You founded StitchCrew. You're running a business accelerator for start ups here in Oklahoma. Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

Aaron Ackerman:

So how did you get this idea? Just tell me how StitchCrew came about and tell everybody about your accelerator.

Erika Lucas:

Well first of all, thank you so much for having us. We also love spending time with you and so we're very thrilled to be here.

Erika Lucas:

So the idea actually came about, most business starts with an excitement of doing something new. Ours perhaps started in the opposite way. It was out of frustration.

Erika Lucas:

So Chris, as you mentioned, has been a serial entrepreneur. And I was more on the investment side at that point in my career. And what we started noticing is that although Oklahoma is known for producing high profile entrepreneurs particularly in traditional industries like the oil and gas industry, I think that those companies obviously have matured to the point that they're now large corporations.

Erika Lucas:

And I feel like we've lost our entrepreneurial roots in the state. As a result, most of the economic development narrative a well as the policy narrative was focused more on supporting those large entities. But we had forgotten that those entities started in somebody's garage.

Erika Lucas:

And so what we started noticing that got us frustrated was it's great to help those large employers. We want to help them too, but we also can't ignore the entrepreneurial community because they're the next generation of entrepreneurs.

Erika Lucas:

And because we weren't paying attention to that, what we started noticing is an exodus of talent leaving the state because they thought that it would be easier to raise capital in the coast or get more mentorships or just more, even programs, that support early stage entrepreneurs.

Erika Lucas:

And so I said that's how the idea started. At least that's how StitchCrew started at the very beginning.

Aaron Ackerman:

So for you it was solving a problem you guys solved?

Erika Lucas:

Exactly.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Erika Lucas:

Not necessarily for ourselves but for the future of our community.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah. And so that started about two years ago. And then about a year ago, and Chris and I started doing that on our own. And about a year ago one of the things we did was we partner with Oklahoma City Thunder because they wanted to help. They saw what we were doing. They saw that we were doing it not just in Oklahoma but in other hubs throughout the middle of the country.

Erika Lucas:

And so we decided to partner with them to launch the actual accelerator which is where we help the companies in cohorts. We do two cohorts a year, in the spring and in the fall, and that's how we help entrepreneurs. It enabled us to scale at that point.

Aaron Ackerman:

Cool. So did you seek out the Thunder? Like how did that partnership come around?

Erika Lucas:

It started over drinks, didn't it?

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, I'm happy to say that it did. It started over drinks. We knew them socially. And when I say them, we knew members of the executive team on a social side.

Chris Lucas:

And just through conversation. Just interest in what we were doing and ideas that they had, as Erika mentioned, to really have bigger impact in the community outside of obviously what they do on the court.

Chris Lucas:

And just it really was that proverbial on the back of the napkin layout, like oh well what if we did this? What if we did that? And that conversation happened over several meetings. I mean it took months for us to really to narrow down okay, what we really would be interested in doing would be an accelerator program.

Chris Lucas:

Erika and I have experience working with other accelerators across the country. And that would be an interesting model for us to do here. And they're like let's do it.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, so they provide the space where we house. So when we were having these discussions over the back of a napkin, as Chris said, the Thunder has always been so willing to give back to the community and to have that corporate citizenship.

Erika Lucas:

And so they were thinking of creating a creative space where you could host workshops and other type of forums and maybe even do a co-sharing space.

Erika Lucas:

And what we brought to the table was more that accelerator experience and the programming side of helping entrepreneurs. So we were a little bit more focused on the entrepreneurial aspect, but it fit right with what they wanted to do with the space.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, so I know and I'm really fortunate to be involved as a mentor and have really appreciated that experience. I know you guys think of your mentor network as one of the differentiators for the accelerator. Talk a little bit about that. Was that intentional? How did you build that network? And why do you think that's such a value add?

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, I mean it's definitely intentional. I do think that's our strength and our secret sauce to the accelerator program is our mentor network and then we have 80 plus mentors, in and out of state mentors.

Chris Lucas:

And the secret to that is, and this is not just a StitchCrew thing, this is something I think has come between successful accelerators across the country is they focus in finding mentors who have a give back and give first mentality.

Chris Lucas:

A lot of mentors have been there, done that. Had success, had failures. And are not trying to sell services to entrepreneurs, not trying to get anything from them. Just want to help them, see them succeed and keep it, pass it forward. So we're very selective in that process and we're just fortunate and lucky to have great mentors, like yourself, who get it and who just want to see it happen in our community and grow the community that way.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's cool. You mentioned that give back mentality. When we first started talking over a year ago, that was something that really stuck with me is you guys talked about generosity and this concept of giving without expecting anything in return. And I've seen you all demonstrate that personally. I love that that's a big part of StitchCrew and the Thunder Launchpad.

Aaron Ackerman:

As I think back over my career, I've had some people that have helped me with introductions and connections, with advice, and they were just generous and genuinely wanted to help me succeed and had to expectation of me reciprocating that in any real, tangible way.

Aaron Ackerman:

And I'm a big believer that you do get reciprocated maybe not from the person you helped, but the universe just pays you back.

Aaron Ackerman:

How did you guys develop that philosophy? Is it something that you built from childhood? Is it something that grew out of just your careers and being entrepreneurs yourselves?

Erika Lucas:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Like where did that come from for you?

Erika Lucas:

So I'll speak to it from my perspective. I was born in Mexico into a family of bootstrap entrepreneurs and they didn't become entrepreneurs because it was sexy but out of necessity, right?

Erika Lucas:

And so I saw the struggle first hand. Perhaps to a point that I took the completely opposite route and became like a corporate ladder person. So I went, I took jobs and did all of that because I saw the struggle that entrepreneurs go through.

Erika Lucas:

But then I ended up marrying a serial entrepreneur so I have a big heart for entrepreneurs. But one thing that's consistent that I saw is that everybody loves to work with CEOs of successful companies. You want to be their vendor, their friend. You want to play golf with them. You want to give them incentives.

Erika Lucas:

But nobody wants to really hang out with the struggling entrepreneur that's just starting out. And that resonated with me because of what I saw with my grandpa, my grandma, my mom and everybody that was an entrepreneur in my family and even with Chris.

Erika Lucas:

And so for us, when we agreed to do this and even as we were talking to the Thunder about our vision, we just wanted to be founder first because we know what it feels like to be in their shoes. To have people tell you no that's a dumb idea, that's not going to work. Or call us when you get to a certain stage.

Erika Lucas:

I think it gave us a different perspective because we have been there and we knows what it feels like. And we just wanted to be very intentional about helping those people probably because we related it to our own experience an to those that we love.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's awesome.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, I think the one thing I would to add to that is we're spoiled almost in Oklahoma because it's that hospitality that we have here. And really you're only one or two degrees of separation from anybody if you want to get in front of and just through an introduction here and there.

Chris Lucas:

So I think that's an advantage to being in Oklahoma is the accessibility to most anybody you want to talk to, you can get in front of them.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's cool. I want to put a marker there. We'll come back to that in a second because I think you bring up a great point.

Aaron Ackerman:

But just staying on the generosity and the mentors and as involved as you guys are with all the founders that come through the program. Most, if not all of them, are ultimately looking for investment and looking for money probably. But the founders that I've worked with. I think they are so appreciative and just they feel that support from you guys, from StitchCrew and from the mentors.

Aaron Ackerman:

I can't imagine. Boot strapping's no joke. And if you're just out there on your own. I mean that's tough. So to have this whole community of people trying to help you, cheering you on, not expecting anything in return. That's got to be such a good feeling and really confidence booster for somebody trying to start something from scratch.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, for sure. I mean that's actually part of our slogan. It's nobody builds companies alone.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Erika Lucas:

Because we certainly believe that. There is the image that we've created in the media or how the media often portrays the Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerbergs, the successful entrepreneurs. It's a lone wolf type of mentality.

Erika Lucas:

But really, I mean all of us that have built businesses, we know that you can't do it alone. You need mentors, you need employees, you need family members, you need friends, you need investors. There's a whole collection of social capital that comes through and helps you build that company. So the community matter, the peer to peer support matters a lot.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's awesome.

Chris Lucas:

And a lot of that factors into, and we don't talk about this a lot, but there's the whole, the wellness aspect of being an entrepreneur. It's one of the hardest thing you'll ever do for one thing. And it can be very lonely. And it's stressful and there's a lot of anxiety. I'm not trying to just discourage people from doing this.

Chris Lucas:

It's one of the most rewarding things that you could ever do. But especially for solo founders, it's just important to surround yourself with a support network and peers and people who are interested in you, your success and you can talk about your failures. And it's good to get those things out. I think it's important. And I think we're going to put more focus on that even going forward of how can we support them just from the mental, emotional and maybe even spiritual health of what they're doing.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right, yeah, that's awesome. The program is what? 12 weeks? Or 16 weeks?

Erika Lucas:

So yes. Officially, it's 12 weeks.

Aaron Ackerman:

12 weeks.

Erika Lucas:

But we continue to help them even after demo day because that's actually, and I don't know if we'll get into that but for those that are fundraising, actually the fundraising happens more likely after you graduate the program. So we're often doing a lot of the introductions to investors or facilitating some of those meetings after they graduate. So officially, it is 12 weeks.

Aaron Ackerman:

Sure, you're not kicking people out the door.

Erika Lucas:

No, no.

Aaron Ackerman:

But still I mean I think during the 12 weeks, the founders are seeing each other at least every week, if not some of them, almost daily. They're interacting with you. Then that's over to some extent. And if they don't have a framework and an approach in place to keeping themselves well, mentally positive, all that, yeah, I think that's a great thing to put an emphasis on.

Aaron Ackerman:

So Chris, you mentioned Oklahoma and maybe some inherent advantages to Oklahoma. I know you guys have been in Denver, Boulder, Austin and San Francisco, some of the places that everyone just associates with entrepreneurship and start up and technology.

Aaron Ackerman:

So why Oklahoma particularly for you guys? Why is this a good place for somebody to start a business? Whether it's a tech start up, bio or anything? Like why here? Why now?

Chris Lucas:

Well why not? I mean, no, so I think what's interesting about Oklahoma and the Midwest in general is you have this opportunity to almost build it from scratch. I mean if you're coming in early from a early thriving, starting to materialize ecosystem.

Chris Lucas:

So if that's interesting to you to get in on the ground floor then this is a great time to do it. There's a lot of resources locally. Not just capital, but a lot of support resources here. Outside of the accelerators obviously the universities. The state has programs that, and Metro Techs and Career Techs, are all really starting to focus and convene around this idea of entrepreneurship.

Chris Lucas:

So I think just timing wise, it's a great time to be here. Not to pick on the coast but there's an over saturation really so I mean I think even from investors and mentors and even companies looking to relocate maybe are looking to the Midwest because it's just less chaos, less noise.

Chris Lucas:

And I think that presents a great opportunity now to be here and not just start something but just from the support network too. What do you think?

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, I mean I would echo that as well as Chris mentioned this as well. Here you're one person away from getting to the know the person that could pilot your product, could buy your product, could invest in your product, could tell somebody else about your product.

Erika Lucas:

So we were just actually in D.C. earlier this walk talking about this. And there are a lot of communities, even outside of the popular, high profile tech hubs, that are trying to encourage their own entrepreneurial communities.

Erika Lucas:

And so I think from perspective, the economic development narrative, I think we offer the same things. Obviously because of the nature of where we are, we are at a low cost of entry for entrepreneurs. I mean we have competitive taxes. We have competitive cost of living.

Erika Lucas:

We won't get too much into that. I think we need to do better when it comes to quality of life and other investments that are really important for the type of lifestyle that some of the entrepreneurs we talk to want to live. But that's for another podcast.

Erika Lucas:

But I think that those are unique qualifiers. And something that we mentioned in D.C. last week, because of course, we were talking to, even though they weren't the Austins or the Chicagos or the Utahs, there were larger communities, more established communities.

Erika Lucas:

And they asked the same question of us. And I said, "Ultimately, you can go anywhere you want to, right, and start your business. I would focus on the type of business that you're building and the type of network that you're going to need."

Erika Lucas:

"Obviously in Oklahoma, we're a big aerospace, energy, agriculture, even fin tech would make sense here. So if you're in one of the those industries, you need to pay attention to Oklahoma."

Erika Lucas:

But in general, I would say we're just a super young state. Which if you look at it from the investment perspective, the growth is tremendous, right? We're just over 100 years old.

Erika Lucas:

And what we tell entrepreneurs is "Hey, either stay here or come here and help us build the type of community that you want to ultimately live in because we're at the opportunity where we can build it that way, right? We can do it together."

Erika Lucas:

To what Chris said before, if you go to other communities, you're going to be one of many in a community that's pretty much already well established.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right. It seems like, I don't know if I can quantify or really put my finger on it. It just seems like Oklahoma City is, there's a lot of momentum behind entrepreneurship and really fostering and encouraging the whole ecosystem.

Aaron Ackerman:

10 years ago, just I wasn't part of a lot of conversations like I am now. There weren't as many people like you and other organizations in Tulsa or Oklahoma City that are really trying to build something.

Aaron Ackerman:

And being a lifelong Oklahoma City resident, I'm super invested in this community. I love it. It's a great place to live. And so it's really exciting to me to see everything happening. And it just feels like it's coming together right now.

Aaron Ackerman:

And a lot of that even goes back to the urban development and Oklahoma City and Tulsa are doing exciting things. I remember when I was in high school, people my age didn't want to stay in Oklahoma.

Aaron Ackerman:

Bricktown was basically didn't exist and downtown was just an eight to five place and that's completely different, I think. So to your point of quality of life, that's come a long way in Oklahoma City and Tulsa. And these are great places to live.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, I agree 100%. I would say this though. It takes time to really grow what people consider a thriving entrepreneurial community, right?

Chris Lucas:

So when you think of places like Colorado, Boulder and obviously San Francisco and Austin, it's taken years for them to get where they are. It's definitely, and we're not saying that here today obviously, but it's not an overnight. It's not a hey in a couple of years, we're going to be there.

Chris Lucas:

So I say all that to encourage people to hey, just be patient and continue to drive support and interest. It's not a trend. It's not a fad. If you want it to happen, it could take 10 years for us to really get ... If we want to be like an Austin which I don't know if we do, but if that's what we're trying to get to, it's going to take time. So we have to continue to support and feed into the entrepreneurs.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. I think there's a few components of Oklahoma City and Tulsa that really make it a good place for this to happen here. University centers nearby. Research centers. Some things like that.

Aaron Ackerman:

One thing that I think is a little bit of a challenge and I'd be interested to see what you guys think is just the sheer land mass size of Oklahoma City in particular. It can get fragmented as far as co-working spaces and where entrepreneurs congregate.

Aaron Ackerman:

Whereas in other cities it's you've got a neighborhood basically and everybody is in the same place. Is that something you guys have run into or how do you see that impacting building a ecosystem?

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, so it is definitely a challenge. And we're getting ready to experience it first hand because we're actually hosting our next cohort not just in another community within Oklahoma City, but in Tulsa.

Erika Lucas:

And so we're actually going to have to commute to Tulsa for a couple of days every week while we're hosting that cohort.

Erika Lucas:

I definitely think it's a challenge. We are one of the largest states in the nation and we are very spread out and in terms of communities. That's why we actually build our program the way we did. Because we identified that as a main challenge.

Erika Lucas:

And we want to help entrepreneurs everywhere regardless of where they're located. So most of our curriculum is actually done online. So you are only required, if you're going through our program, you're only required to come in ... We do give you free space if you want it. And if you want access to it. But we don't make you be there.

Erika Lucas:

So we rather you be selling or building. But the only requirement is that you do come in once a week for a workshop and the peer to peer collaboration that we mentioned that's critical. But most everything else is done virtually because of that challenge.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay, yeah. So obviously technology makes it where we can connect to anybody, any time, anywhere so that's awesome. And I'm super excited that you guys are doing a cohort in Tulsa. We've got office. Our biggest office is there and so I'm excited for some of my partners and colleagues to be able to get involved.

Erika Lucas:

For sure, we might actually ask you for some space.

Aaron Ackerman:

We can make that happen.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, if you know anybody that has some space in Tulsa.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

For sure. So you guys have been three batches, is that right?

Erika Lucas:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Aaron Ackerman:

So just based on that experience and also you both have been entrepreneurs for a long time, what are one or two or three things you see that ... Or you can take this question either way. What are some common mistakes? Or maybe the other side if you want to go positive is like what is a really critical characteristic or component of being successful?

Chris Lucas:

So I think the first thing that popped in my head was a couple of mistakes so I'll throw some of those out and then hopefully we'll end on some more positive notes but I think going into it thinking that you're going to get rich quick.

Chris Lucas:

If that's what you're wanting to do, I think starting a business or I think entrepreneurs don't think that way generally. But if that's your goal, I probably wouldn't do this. There's a lot of other things I could probably advise somebody to do if really getting wealthy is what they're wanting to do.

Aaron Ackerman:

There's a lot of beans and rice and ramen noodles in those early days.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, there is. There sure is. There's a lot of sacrifice that goes into it for sure. And I also think that what we see a lot and we try to get in front of this as quickly as we can is building a product or a service that you don't know if anybody really wants that.

Chris Lucas:

And we see that time and time again. Entrepreneurs will spend months, six months, a year working on their model, the product and they haven't talked to any customers yet. And they launch and nobody wants what they're doing. They haven't found the product market fit. And I bring that up because we see it a lot.

Chris Lucas:

And so those are the two things that really jump out to me is think you're going to get rich quick and not finding that market that really wants what you're doing. So it's something we see a lot.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, I mean those definitely two rise to the top. Knowing that it's just going to take a lot of work. I think we all underestimate the amount of, like Chris said even before this question, the mental drain that you're going to have to go through because you're going to go through a lot of nos from investors, from clients, from ... And so just being willing to be so passionate about the problem that you're solving that you're going to stick with it, I think, it's ... So you mentioned what are the mistakes but what are some of the positives that we've seen?

Erika Lucas:

We've also had super passionate founders that were so passionate about solving the problem that you can see that in their grit and in their hustle and they just don't give up, right?

Erika Lucas:

So from a positive perspective, we've also seen those founders that are just they get the problem. Maybe they're solving the problem because they've personally experienced it. Or they care about the population that they're trying to serve.

Erika Lucas:

And so that's definitely a positive that we see in good founders. Also founders that understand that, again, nobody builds companies alone. So they're comfortable and aware. So they have self awareness to say, "Hey, I don't know what I don't know and I'm just going to ask for help."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Erika Lucas:

Because sometimes we live in a society where perfectionism tribes especially with your social media, you see one side of people or one side of businesses. You don't necessarily see the struggle.

Erika Lucas:

And I think that what has transpired into how we deal with people or how we deal in building businesses is that we want to hide the negatives or the things that we don't know as to not be vulnerable, right?

Erika Lucas:

And I think the founders that we've seen who hae overcome those stages are the ones that are willing to say hell I don't know how to do this so I'm going to ask a mentor or I'm going to ask a friend or I'm just going to ask around until I get some help.

Erika Lucas:

So I think being willing to and humble enough to ask for help when you need it and read and learn and be coachable. I think that's the other component of what I would say that we've found good in founders.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah and so I guess piggybacking on that is the other thing that we see is the roles and responsibilities of a founder bleed into all parts of the business. What do they say? You're not working on your business, you're working in your business.

Chris Lucas:

And that means you're not just the sales. You're not just marketing. You're going to bleed over into all of those functions of your business. And you're not then you're going to have a problem down the line.

Chris Lucas:

So I just think being open to opinion and guidance. And being willing to pivot. That proverbial pivot that we do. I think if you're open to that then your odds of success probably go up a little bit.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, I like that. Being humble and coachable. I've always thought it would be really hard to be the smartest person in the room all the time. Luckily I've never had to worry about that.

Chris Lucas:

What's that feel like?

Aaron Ackerman:

But that means you've got to have all the answers and none of us really do so I love that. You did bring up the pivot. We see, even in my practice, business whether they're start ups early stage or really mature businesses, almost every business experiences what we call a near death moment at some point in time.

Aaron Ackerman:

And maybe it's back to what you mentioned the not having the right product market fit or something else. But how do you prepare the founders that come through the launchpad for ... Or maybe the question is how do you know whether you should stick with your idea because you've got a good idea or you do need to make that pivot? I think sometimes that's hard to really know how far do you take it before you go okay, this isn't working?

Aaron Ackerman:

Because you do have that passion about I'm solving a problem. So I think it's tough to know like okay, I need to do something different with this business or this idea.

Erika Lucas:

I think that's where, what Chris said, customer feedback is so important. And by that I mean paying customers.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Erika Lucas:

Because a lot of customers can tell you a lot of things if they're not paying for it. But I think paying customers and listening to those that are really vested in what you're trying to do. I think that's important if there's still viability in your start up.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, I think I would agree. If that problem and that pain point is not just what you perceive to be a pain point but again going back to the customer feedback, and Erika makes a good point. There's a lot of people who if they aren't paying your product will tell you all kinds of cool things. But it's when okay, how, I'm going to monetize what I'm doing. Now where are they doing?

Chris Lucas:

There's a difference between a beta tester and somebody who's willing to be okay, I'm in. Here's my cash.

Chris Lucas:

So just being open to that. And that's one really cool thing about not just our accelerator but accelerators in general. Anywhere where you get with peer, in peer groups, is we've seen this where a company will come in with a cool idea and they're starting to work on some interesting technology. And then another company is doing something and they combine. And that's the pivot.

Chris Lucas:

And together they're creating a company that's addressing that problem. Whereas if they were apart, maybe that doesn't happen. So that's something that's interesting that spins out of what we're doing and what other programs are doing that's really pretty cool.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Erika Lucas:

And I think that understand, so one of the process that we go through in our program is, and I love that you mentioned this, Aaron, is so every company at every stage of their life cycle is going to face problems.

Erika Lucas:

Understanding that some problems are normal versus critical in each of the stages is important. So I think I love that you said even you guys, at some point, know that you have to do things differently in order to stay afloat and stuff like that.

Erika Lucas:

And I think that start ups is the same thing. So it's one thing to pivot because your customer is obviously not willing to pay for exactly what you were building, but if you did this or if you integrated these couple of these things and really solved their pain point then they would be willing to. So that's one type of pivot.

Erika Lucas:

I think you also mentioned like when is the time to shut it off, right? And I think that that should come, and that's where the self awareness of founders come through. If you built something and you didn't take into consideration that feedback or you're ultimately not pushing through and customers are not buying, I think you do have to take a step back and be very humble enough and self aware enough to know this is not the solution.

Erika Lucas:

This is not what's fixing the problem so maybe I need to do something different or tackle it from a completely different perspective. But I think it takes humbleness and self awareness to be able to do that.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, one thing you guys didn't mention and I wanted to ask about. I don't know if it would be, maybe what your opinion is on a solo founder versus co-founders. Like is that something you encourage companies to have co-founders? That really didn't come up when we were talking about mistakes and stuff, but I'm curious where you guys are there?

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, no, that is a big deal. And a lot of that goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the health and wellness and it's great to ... I mean solo entrepreneurs are really at risk because they don't often have times to vent. They keep a lot of things to themselves. So the anxiety and stress factor is probably higher, quite a bit higher without a co-founder.

Chris Lucas:

But we do talk about that a lot. I think it's important to have co-founders. If you're not a technical person and you're trying to build a technical, a tech company, there's a problem there. And if they don't have a technical co-founder come in, we do encourage and try to help facilitate that.

Chris Lucas:

But it's just good to have different perspective at the end of the day, I think. Because we all have our biases, right? I mean cognitive or whatever it may be. And the way we see things is not always going to be the correct way to do it. So all that to say just I think it's always great to have that other lens that somebody else can bring to the table and that skill set and communication that way.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, I think that for the companies that we host in the accelerator, they tend to ... We do look for business models that could potentially scale. And so we do definitely encourage founders to not go at it alone. Even if they're not co-founders, at least build a really good team.

Erika Lucas:

Not to discourage solo entrepreneurs from doing that, but perhaps I think it has to do a lot too with the type of business model, right? And so we always go back to the founder, what type of company do you really want to build and why?

Erika Lucas:

And then ultimately once they respond those, you can actually see okay, maybe that is a solo founder if it's more of a consulting gig or a freelancing type of deal then sure.

Erika Lucas:

But if you're building a company that's likely to grow and scale and you don't have the resources or the capital to just go and hire a bunch of people, we do definitely encourage co-founders. And because primarily what Chris said, the diversity of thought.

Chris Lucas:

Yeah, and the only other thing I might add to that and this is probably a longer answer. Maybe for another time or question but if they are looking for investment, if that is in their future, it's going to be hard as a solo entrepreneur to get an investor to invest in them.

Chris Lucas:

Especially if they're outsourcing their services or technology to somebody else. That's not going to be an investible from a venture capital standpoint. Most of the time anyway. So if that's their goal down the line is to bring in capital, they're going to need a team.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, so speaking of co-founders, you guys are co-founders. You're also co-founders of a family and a life. So I know you've had, I can think off the top of my head two or three husband, wife co-founder teams that have been part of one of the cohorts.

Aaron Ackerman:

So just from my perspective like you guys work awesome together. I don't know that every husband and wife would be able to do it as beautifully as you all do. Have you been able to be a resource for other husband, wife teams? Maybe what do you love about working together? What are some of the challenges? And again, from my perspective, like you guys kill that. It's awesome.

Erika Lucas:

I'm glad it looks that way.

Chris Lucas:

Look behind the curtain.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah.

Chris Lucas:

It might be different.

Erika Lucas:

We actually wrote a blog about it not too long ago because we do get asked this question a lot. Look, Chris and I are very independent. So before, he was a serial entrepreneur. He did a few businesses prior to us doing StitchCrew together. And he did it very independently. I mean I would help but he was the operator. He was the owner and CEO.

Erika Lucas:

And then I had my own career and I travel a lot. So we, I mean some couples like to do everything together. We actually, we're very independent in that sense.

Erika Lucas:

And so when we first talked about doing StitchCrew, we both had our doubts, right? I mean we were like oh my gosh, we listened to everybody else's feedback of what it would be like and are you sure? And all of that.

Erika Lucas:

But ultimately, I think it's [inaudible 00:37:47] us a lot of things. I think that we complement each other very well. Chris has skills and looks at problems in a completely different way than I do.

Erika Lucas:

And so we've just had to figure out how to leverage each other's strengths in a way that optimizes the team. But let us not kid anybody. I mean there are times when we're still maybe behind the scenes yell at each other as we get into heated arguments.

Aaron Ackerman:

So who's the boss? I mean that's really all I want to know.

Chris Lucas:

So I'm in front of the mike so I guess I'm going to answer that. I don't know. It depends on the day, I guess. But honestly, we've had 14 years of co-founder, marriage, co-founder sounds silly, but of marriage. So we know at this point when the other one needs to be just left alone.

Chris Lucas:

And not a lot of companies have that because they don't have that history together. But I think at the end of the day, like a lot of things, it comes down to it's just communication. If you can't communicate with your co-founders about things, about the good and the bad, then you're going to have big problems.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Chris Lucas:

And so you have to develop that communication style and what works and the culture fit. And all those things that I think we have found that over the years and we know. We know when to jump in and be pretty strong willed about something or when we need to back off with each other.

Chris Lucas:

And that works and again, we do bring different skill sets so I think that's always ... We complement each other that way. But yeah, it's not easy and we do get, to answer your question, we do have companies that have relationships outside of their business whether they're married couples. And we do try not to overstep the bounds of getting personal, unless they want us to.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Chris Lucas:

But we do enjoy that and we're just trying to pass on what we've learned over the years and what works for us may not work for everybody. But if they have that foundation of communication then I think they have a chance.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. I think anybody that's trying to build a business probably works a lot of hours. Is it harder to turn that off when you leave the office and you go home together with your business partner? Like I could see it being hard to not work just 24 hours a day?

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, so Chris is a lot better about that than I am. And he's always keeping me in check because I do need to be kept on check. At the same time though, I think we love what we're doing. We believe in it. We wouldn't be doing it if we didn't. And so I get that some couples working together try to talk about turning it off at home.

Erika Lucas:

I think we enjoy it. So we actually enjoy talking about the founders or problem solving with each other as we're eating dinner or over a glass of wine. Or even engaging our girls. We have two girls.

Erika Lucas:

And so they get into the conversation. They tell us what they think. So but at the same time I think, like Chris said, we know when to back off. Like we know when maybe one of us is overwhelmed and does not want to talk about work anymore.

Erika Lucas:

And so it's just respecting those boundaries. But we also love to talk about it when we're traveling or on vacation and stuff just because we believe in the mission, in the larger mission. And then we also incorporate the girls into it.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that's awesome. I've always been a big believe that you don't really have a work life and a home life. You just have a life. And you have to be able to weave all that together in a beautiful and appropriate way and so I love it. That makes a lot of sense.

Aaron Ackerman:

So I think we touched on this before so there's been a lot of momentum in the last few years around entrepreneurship in Oklahoma. A lot of support from StitchCrew and others that are doing some other things to really build that ecosystem.

Aaron Ackerman:

From the other side of things, the investment that it's in Oklahoma. Like maybe this is just an assumption on my part, but a lot of the money is maybe historically oil and gas money, from a different world.

Aaron Ackerman:

So as you guys have been talking to investors, trying to match up investors with start ups that you have worked with, what are some of the particular challenges? Are there any misconceptions or fallacies that you consistently have to work through with investors so that they get really excited about this early stage opportunity?

Aaron Ackerman:

And maybe to piggyback on that, like is there a shared vocabulary and vernacular that's existing more now that maybe wasn't there a few years ago?

Erika Lucas:

So you're right. I think there's a lot of wealth in Oklahoma. Most of the deployment of that capital goes to either philanthropy or latter stage type of investments and more conservative ... Well, you can argue but just different type of assets.

Erika Lucas:

But I do think that there is ... Like people are starting to take a different look at start ups. You mentioned something so we try not to say that we are convincing investors to invest in start ups because hey, we get it. Start ups are risky and we're never trying to give the impression that they're not. They are.

Erika Lucas:

We just believe that it's riskier as a community not to invest in them, right? So when we talk to investors, we talk to investors who already have an appetite and the mental tolerance to invest in risky investments. They can afford to lose that money if so.

Erika Lucas:

It's been a little bit challenging to drive that narrative here in Oklahoma because like we said, just historically, it hasn't been one of those assets that people are always looking for.

Erika Lucas:

We also haven't really had big exits or at least talk about where it creates that appetite. And so it's not as competitive to get into people's caps table because we just haven't created enough momentum.

Erika Lucas:

So one of the things that we're trying to do is while we are trying to mobilize the investment community in our state and in our region, we're also trying to talk to investors that already have those funding vehicles established and are willing to look at outside the traditional tech hubs.

Erika Lucas:

So actually in our database we have, gosh, almost now 400 investors in it. And I would 90% of them are out of state. And we tell the founders, yes, you need to obviously look at local angels and local investors. But it's okay to ask for money for investors that are located somewhere else as long as they're willing to ... There are some funds that only invest within a certain radius of where they're located.

Erika Lucas:

But a lot of them are looking into, they're just opportunistic and they're looking at deals everywhere.

Erika Lucas:

So I guess I don't know if I'm answering your question but here in Oklahoma, I think, we are definitely starting to see the interest and the mobilization of high net worth individuals that want to play in this area, but it's been a little bit slower. And we expected that honestly.

Aaron Ackerman:

So you said something just a minute ago I want to ask about. You said, "We haven't had big exits." And you stopped yourself and said, "Well, we haven't talked about them."

Erika Lucas:

Sure.

Aaron Ackerman:

So I've wondered this because I know of some exits and like I'll learn of a big, like a nice exit that happened a few years ago that I never even heard about. Like why is that? Why haven't we talked about these big successes in our communities? Like what are we doing there? What's going on?

Erika Lucas:

So I'm a recovering economic developer so I guess I'll speak to this and get in trouble afterwards. I think we've left the business and the wealth creation narrative to traditional economic developers which tend to focus on doing press releases or building around narratives based on job creation, not wealth creation.

Erika Lucas:

And again, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this but I just think I used to be one of them. And so we celebrate new companies coming in, creating new jobs and that gets picked up by our local media.

Erika Lucas:

We celebrate when there's an expansion of company and they're creating new jobs and then there's a media.

Erika Lucas:

We haven't built a narrative around those exits. You're right. We've had several big exits. There's one recently where it was a really big one in an area that I think we need to be talking more which is the weather tech industry.

Erika Lucas:

And we didn't really talk about it. I mean maybe one of our local outlets picked it up. One of the things that we're excited about StitchCrew is that in additional to the accelerator which I think gets a lot of ... It's the most noticeable thing that we do right here in the state.

Erika Lucas:

But we're actually being asked to speak around the nation about not just the program but about what's coming out. And I think one of our biggest missions is to tell the story through a different lens. And tell it not within Oklahomans, but outside of Oklahoma and even globally.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Erika Lucas:

So it's helping tell the story of individual start ups but actually what we're trying to do collectively to shift the narrative of how we present our state to out of state and international investors. I don't know, what do you think?

Chris Lucas:

I can't really add anything to that. I think it boils down to we don't do a great job of just telling the stories. I mean it's probably the easy answer is we just have to do better. And in my opinion, it isn't always going to have to be about the exits. I mean there's a lot of cool, interesting start ups that are happening that are gaining success. We should be talking about those too.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Chris Lucas:

Because I just feeds into the idea and the perception of well it's VC, exit or bust. And that's not true. I mean there's a lot cool, lifestyle success companies and we should be talking about them as well.

Erika Lucas:

I agree. And one of the things that we love being here is because we're such a humble crowd. But we're actually, I mean part of what we go through in our program is telling the founders if your product [inaudible 00:48:59], first of all, build the product that people actually want, right?

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Erika Lucas:

And if it's a product that people actually want the media will come after it, right? To write about it. And then you can't be humble. I mean at that point, you have to talk about your product. You have to talk about not ... Let me take that back.

Erika Lucas:

Don't talk about your product. Talk about the problem you're solving. And why you're solving it. And why your solution is the best solution out there. So we do actually have a high emphasis towards the end of our program to talk about how to tell the story on a national and even international level.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Awesome. Okay, guys. So I've got five questions that we ask all of our guests. And so I'll ask you guys. I'll let you guys decide as we go how you want to do it. You could both take one if you have your own interesting perspective or take turns, whatever you want to do.

Aaron Ackerman:

I think the first one would be good for both of you to answer. What is the first way you ever made money?

Erika Lucas:

You're the entrepreneur.

Chris Lucas:

Let's see. I started my lawn mowing empire when I was 12 and we had a big yard where I grew up so we had a riding lawnmower. And I would zip that thing up and down the streets of my neighborhood pulling my push mower behind me.

Chris Lucas:

And it got pretty big at 12. And so I started having my friends bike over and meet me at the yards and I'd dole out a third of what I was getting and they'd help me.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Chris Lucas:

And so that was my first taste of oh man, I'm going to be, I'm the boss. I'm making some money. So that was, maybe it's in my DNA, I don't know, but that's where it all started. My first dollar bill.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Now were your parents entrepreneurs and business owners?

Chris Lucas:

No. Well actually no, that's not entirely accurate. I have it. It runs in my family. And not ... My dad's very successful but he's corporate. He's corporate all the way.

Aaron Ackerman:

Right.

Chris Lucas:

But my mom's side, it trickles down to the blood line I think. My mom started, has done a few things. So yeah maybe. Maybe it's in their family.

Aaron Ackerman:

What about you, Erika?

Erika Lucas:

So I mentioned that I was born into a family of entrepreneurs so I went completely the opposite route and I worked for somebody else and collected the paychecks. So I worked, I think my first paycheck was working at a restaurant as a server.

Aaron Ackerman:

So did you go that route because you were just a rebellious teenager? Or did you see times where mom and dad struggled? It was not as steady. Like what made you want to not do what you'd seen in your family necessarily?

Erika Lucas:

I mean so I don't know that I did it for that. I just I do remember seeing the struggle and knowing like oh my gosh, I just want to work for a big company that just gives me a paycheck every month or whatever.

Erika Lucas:

So maybe it did influence me a little bit just because I wanted, again, I saw the struggle. But I was definitely very rebellious. And even though-

Aaron Ackerman:

You don't seem very rebellious to me.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, right. Yeah, you can just anybody that knows me on a personal level. No, but I think the entrepreneurial spirit was always within me because I get bored if I'm not doing something new or if I'm not adding value.

Erika Lucas:

Even in the jobs that I've held before, I created new divisions or new products or whatever. And then once they matured a little bit I'm like okay, I'm ready to do something else.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. So even in a corporate environment you're always taking that-

Erika Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, that entrepreneurial angle.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah. Okay. It's good stuff. What is the best advice you've ever received?

Erika Lucas:

I guess I can answer that one. Something that's stuck with me particularly maybe even now is whatever you fear the most is the thing you need to learn the most about. And that that will diminish the fear, right?

Erika Lucas:

So oftentimes, even when Chris started working together, because he's managed businesses, I used to say, "Okay, well you take care of the books. You take care of negotiating the contracts or whatever."

Erika Lucas:

And I realized that it's this fear that I hadn't done it before on my own. So I just needed to learn how to do it so that we can have more meaningful conversations.

Erika Lucas:

And so I remember a good mentor of mine saying, "Just the reason why you shied away from it. Don't ever say that you're not good at finances or you're not good. Learn about it. Because it's really just the fear of the unknown and you just need to educate yourself on it and then you'll be able to have those meaningful conversations." So just ongoing learning, I guess, would be the best advice that I've ever gotten.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, I love that. You guys know Robert Wagner. He's my partner and co-host on this podcast. And he's got this saying he uses all the time and it's just "Do hard things." A lot of people just don't want to do hard things. And so I love that and one thing we ... I've got a few sayings. I've become like the dad. I've become my dad. I've got these sayings that my kid roll their eyes when I say them.

Aaron Ackerman:

And but one of the things we talk about in our house is "Everything's hard before it's easy." So you look at somebody who's an amazing guitar player or a painter or amazing at business or whatever it is, like they probably didn't just come out of the womb doing that. It took some hard work, practice, getting over that fear and facing it. And so I love that. It's really good advice. Okay. Did you want to weigh in on any of that?

Chris Lucas:

Oh gosh.

Erika Lucas:

Good advice.

Chris Lucas:

I don't know if it was said to me this way. I don't know if this was said to me but I do like this advice. "Shut up and listen." I think I'm a big communications guy. I think that's important. And I think active listening is something that people generally don't do very well. And so I think the more you practice that, the better off you'll be.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, awesome. So what would you guys be doing if you weren't running StitchCrew, working start ups? Like what did you want to be when you grow up?

Chris Lucas:

Well, I was going to be the tailback for the University of Oklahoma. But-

Aaron Ackerman:

Me too.

Chris Lucas:

... Somewhere between five, nine and 165 pounds that dream faded. So I'm not doing that. I don't know. I'm sure, for me, it would be ... I don't know what this would be but I would be starting companies. That's what I love to do.

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah.

Chris Lucas:

So I don't know. I've done the corporate thing and that's not for me so I'd be starting companies.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay.

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, and I don't know that I wouldn't say that were not necessarily doing this because we are looking at perhaps not a pivot, but an addition to what we're currently doing. It's just social impact investing. So really looking at how we can use philanthropy dollars to ignite entrepreneurial communities.

Erika Lucas:

And I think we're seeing a shift in the type of companies that will be the future generation of companies and certainly start ups that are in it for the profit, but they're also in it for the social good of the communities.

Erika Lucas:

And I think that philanthropists and investors are also aligning their values through how they invest. And so we're really looking into impact investing. Yeah, so stay tuned for that.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay, awesome. So if your life to this point was a content for a book about you, what would the title of your book be?

Chris Lucas:

I love the Robert Frost, what is it? How does it go now that I bring it up? The Road Less Traveled. "Two roads ..."

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, meet in the wood and-

Chris Lucas:

"Meet in the wood. I took the one less traveled and that's made all the difference." I love that. I think about that over time. So I think maybe The Road Less Traveled might be something because my background and career has been pretty diverse. I've done a lot of weird and cool and fun things. And it hasn't been the typical probably linear path for sure. So maybe. Maybe The Road Less Traveled for me.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay, that's awesome.

Chris Lucas:

You're thinking.

Erika Lucas:

So your question was like an existing book or something that we would title our own book?

Aaron Ackerman:

Yeah, what would you title your own book?

Erika Lucas:

Oh gosh, I don't know. So I always say I'm the Chief of Whatever It Takes. So it's like whatever it takes to get it done if we're passionate enough and if it's the right thing to do. So Whatever It Takes.

Aaron Ackerman:

I like it. It's good. Okay, last question. You guys, we just need to stick with it. You both have answered every question which is awesome because you guys are great. So for both of you, what would you go back and tell your 20 year old self?

Chris Lucas:

Take better care of your body, dude. Man, you're not going to be young and it gets harder to stay somewhat healthy as you get older so take care of yourself. I'll think of something better here in a second.

Aaron Ackerman:

No, that's good because I mean that's hard to ... That's something that takes a long time. If you wake up one day and you're in bad health because of decisions you've made, you can't really reverse that so I mean it's the ultimate delayed gratification. And it's like saving for retirement like you can't wake up at 65 and start saving.

Chris Lucas:

Right.

Aaron Ackerman:

You've got to start that when you're young so that's great.

Erika Lucas:

I think that for me, Chris has always been a lot more mature and just he studied psychology and all of that so he's always been very assertive. I wasn't that way. As I mentioned, we migrated to a new country, left everything we knew behind.

Erika Lucas:

And so I think went 20 years back, I did have a sense of thinking that I needed people's validation at some point. And so I would go back and instill in me you don't need people's validation. You can be yourself and do what you need to do regardless of what people think. So yeah, I think that would be mine.

Chris Lucas:

Your answer is better than mine.

Erika Lucas:

No, I also would tell myself to take better care of my body as well.

Aaron Ackerman:

That's great. Well thank you guys. You guys are awesome. I know you're very active on social media. Where can people find you?

Erika Lucas:

Yeah, so our website, it's www.stitchcrew.com. And then our handles for just everything. We're on Twitter. Actually, we're not on SnapChat and we will not get on SnapChat.

Aaron Ackerman:

Amen to that.

Erika Lucas:

But no. No, not at all. But Instagram, YouTube, Twitter.

Aaron Ackerman:

LinkedIn-

Erika Lucas:

And Facebook, LinkedIn. Just use the handle StitchCrew and we'll be there.

Aaron Ackerman:

Okay. So they're everywhere. StitchCrew. You guys are awesome. I love what you're doing. Thank you for, I know there's other things you guys could be doing. Probably getting fantastically wealthier than you are. But I really appreciate the investment you guys make with your time and with StitchCrew to really help other people succeed. It's awesome.

Chris Lucas:

Well, thank you, Aaron.

Erika Lucas:

Thank you. Thank you for what you do. And like you mentioned, you're a great mentor in our program. And you didn't ask us to say this but you're also one of the very early adopters of our program and decided to sponsor it. And it's great. I mean Chris and I do get a lot of kudos. But if it wasn't for our innovation partners and our sponsors who actually fund the program, we wouldn't be here.

Erika Lucas:

So thank you to Hogan Taylor and to you for believing in what we're trying to do from the very get go.

Aaron Ackerman:

Absolutely. It's a lot of fun. It's been great. And like I said earlier, I'm really excited to get some of my partners and colleagues in Tulsa more involved. So that's something we can work on.

Aaron Ackerman:

Well thanks guys. Really love our conversation and your time today so really appreciate it

Erika Lucas:

Thank you.

Chris Lucas:

Thank you.

Aaron Ackerman:

All right, thanks.

Chris Lucas:

See you.

Aaron Ackerman:

And that's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play or Stitcher.

Aaron Ackerman:

This content is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2019, Hogan Taylor LLP. All rights reserved. To view the Hogan Taylor general terms and conditions, visit www.hogantaylor.com.