87. Brandon Sebald – 7 Brew Coffee

Brandon Sebald:

What we're doing at Seven Brews is we are revolutionizing coffee business. We're not just selling coffee there, we're selling an experience. If you go through one of our locations, we have a double drive-through lane, so it enables people to get through there fast. But what is also is happening in that double drive-through lane is we have these double doors on the side. So our team is outside with iPads. We like to tell the story of the Seven Brews, the marriage of Starbucks and Chick-Fil-A and if they had a baby, it'd be Seven Brew.

Robert Wagner:

From HoganTaylor's CPAs and Advisors, I'm Robert Wagner and this is How That Happened, a business and innovation success podcast. Each episode of the show we sit down with the business and community leaders behind thriving organizations to learn how business and innovation success actually happens.

Our guest today is Brandon Sebald. Brandon is an experienced serial entrepreneur. He is the CEO of Seven Brew LLC, the first franchisee for Seven Brew Coffee, which is an exciting and relatively new coffee brand and experience.

Brew Crew has a license to open nearly 100 stores in Arkansas, Missouri, Louisiana, and Texas. Prior to his relationship with Seven Brew, Brandon was part of a Planet Fitness franchise group that had 92 locations across six states. He is also co-owner of a high-end custom home building company in Fayetteville, Arkansas. And then finally, Brandon is also a Buff City Soap franchisee with six New York stores and a territory to build up to 40 locations. Buff City Soap creates scented plant-based soaps made by hand daily in each location. Prior to all of that, Brandon attended and played football at the University of Miami where he studied business finance and marketing, all skills that he's put to good use. He also attended Hofstra University in New York where he earned a degree in finance. Brandon was in the 2022 class of 40 intriguing business and political leaders under 40 published by Arkansas Business. Brandon, welcome to the How That Happened podcast.

Brandon Sebald:

Robert, how are you?

Robert Wagner:

I'm good, man. How's it going?

Brandon Sebald:

Very good. I have to apologize for the late start here. My last call went to the wire and then I had trouble signing on. Amy just helped me finally-

Robert Wagner:

Okay, good.

Brandon Sebald:

Get in here.

Robert Wagner:

Good deal. Can you hear me just fine?

Brandon Sebald:

I can hear you fine. Can you hear me? I just actually moved into a new office here Friday, so this will be one of my first Zoom calls here from this office. Is the audio okay?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, you're sounding great and I like the visitor we have in the background too. That's kind of cool.

Brandon Sebald:

I still got to figure out the right orientation of-

Robert Wagner:

Oh wow.

Brandon Sebald:

Here's another guy. If [inaudible 00:02:40]

Robert Wagner:

Oh that's nice.

Brandon Sebald:

This is my family like Old Cow Hunter, Hail Ventures and then the brands just that I'm affiliated with Seven Brew, Buff City Soap, Rare Bird Builders and Planet Fitness.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, very cool.

Brandon Sebald:

I might have my new background when I figure out my setup here, but I have to again apologize for the late start. I pride myself on being on time and I was just talking to our chief culture officer at Seven Brew and I could talk all day about culture and that stuff and got sucked into the web.

Robert Wagner:

No problem, no problem. So thank you for doing this, we really appreciate it. Very excited to hear from you and about your background so we can make up a little time. And the fact I've already recorded an intro for us just so you know, kind of an idea what was said and I talked about you being the CEO of Brew Crew and that you've got a license to open up 100 stores. Also, you were a part of a Planet Fitness group. I mentioned the Buff City Soap deal and then talk about prior to all of that you were at the University of Miami, you played football, you got a degree in finance and also mentioned the 40 under 40 awards.

Robert Wagner:

Okay. All right, Brandon, welcome to the How That Happened podcast.

Brandon Sebald:

It's a pleasure to be here, Robert. Thank you.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, so glad that you're here. So you've had a very interesting background already. You're a young guy but you've already done a lot in your life. And so where did this entrepreneurial spirit come from?

Brandon Sebald:

That's a great question. I would have to go back just to family, I was raised in upstate New York and my parents, my father was an immigrant from Germany and he had a little bit of that entrepreneurial bug in him. When he wasn't a chef at the Culinary Institute of America, he was always doing side gigs of rewinding him... Taking one more step back, he was a chef at the Culinary Institute of America.

So he taught meat fabrication, which was cutting up an animal from a full animal down to what would get on your plate. But even on the side when he wasn't doing that and trying to feed five boys, which from one of five boys, he was always doing side gigs, very entrepreneurial of side work with farmers and things of that nature, crossing deer, random stuff like that. So I ended up growing up around him, helping him butcher animals actually, which was fun for a young kid, butchering deer, cows, chickens, all that. But it instilled in me hard work and then the notion that you really do control your own destiny and how successful you want to be because he was very successful just being a chef. But he also liked to be part of the community and then the entrepreneurial sphere of just doing his own thing on the side as well.

Robert Wagner:

All right. So that makes total sense and that's a great segue because there's many ways to be an entrepreneur and you started out, I think you did some personal training and things like that, which is... That's self employment in most cases, but you've ended up going down the franchise route. So how did that happen and why did you pick it? Or maybe it picked you, I don't know, but how did you get in that side of the business?

Brandon Sebald:

Yeah, another great question. I went to school at the University of Miami in Florida, played high level collegiate football. So my ultimate first goal was to be in the NFL, play in the NFL, I made it in the camp of the Redskins, wasn't good enough, ended up getting cut. And I knew for me it was going to go one of two ways. It was going to go to the NFL, which was the dream job or into finance and business because again, that was instilled in me from a young age and when football didn't work out, as you noted Robert, I got into personal training and it was really more catered towards professional athletes. So at the facility I was working out at trying to get into the NFL, training on speed, strength conditioning, I was there so often that the owner of it said, "Shoot, you're here all the time, you might as well just start working for me."

So I did. I started working for them for a year. I was training professional athletes and then doing some high-end training like mutual fund executives or CEOs of companies, because this was down in Miami, Florida where a lot of great businesses are headquartered and a lot of professional athletes lived. So that was a great experience in itself of just, I mean you're around very successful individuals, again, top mutual fund companies, top fortune 500 CEOs. I was training them, but I also was just asking them questions and they were gracious enough just to allow me to bend their ear and give me life lessons as well on how to grow business and how they got where they are. But I realized when athletics and training... I realized it only had so much bandwidth. I only had x number of hours in a week where they want to work with you one-on-one too, right?

So you can only be in so many places at once, right? So I knew I wouldn't be able to scale that business. And again, in my mind it was like how do I scale it, become even more successful? I had a friend that was getting involved with Planet Fitness. His uncle had been a early franchisee in the northeast, one of my mentors to this day. So he had me take a look at it. He said, "I know you're really involved with this really highly specific sports training." And when I went and looked at Planet Fitness, I didn't really understand it because again, I was training the one percent of the one percent and then he was going after the 85% of individuals, the average Joe, that again, just going in walking on the treadmill for 30 minutes once a week. And it was hard for me to understand, especially $10 a month too.

As many people know, that's Plant Fitness's model is the high volume low cost model. And I didn't understand. I was like, should people keep the door open for too long? And that HVAC system, you're going to be losing money out the door. I didn't fully understand that high volume aspect because I was on the other side of it. Again, training high net worth individuals and charging a lot. But when I dove into it and I saw what they were doing, the bug bit me right away, this gentleman had 15 locations at the time already he was servicing, he had over a hundred thousand members and just a very great individual to aspire to be like. And he's like, "I can continue to scale this and I'm helping hundreds of thousands of people." Yes, you're helping dozens of people, but he is like, "You got to think about what you want in generational wealth down the road. What are your end goals? You know you got to fast forward down the road verses just looking right in front of your nose today."

And when he had those conversations with me, I really started to get it and decided to change course from that specific training of professional athletes to again, Planet Fitness, which is the opposite end of the spectrum, and ventured into that business in South Florida in 2008 was a really fun time of the financial crisis. So I got my master's in opening up a business during a very challenging time. Financing was challenging, at that time there was still... Big box was very successful. So we were trying to rent spaces that everybody from Ross to Bed Bath and Beyond and everybody else was competing at a very different today where they cater, they try to reel in Planet Fitnesses. So it was very challenging, but I learned a lot really fast.

Because I again was skinning my knees and hard lessons every single day and South Florida's a very, very challenging market just to be successful in business from the cost of everything to competition. But started up down there and was successful from day one. It's just a fabulous model. I was very lucky to become part of a good model like Planet Fitness and we were working on growing our market down there and we signed on for one on the front end, Robert, with aspirations to grow and maybe do five of them, something like that. So we were negotiating turf, what they call an arid development agreement where you protected rights and private equity groups swooped in and bought all of South Florida. So it was again another lesson in life of don't count your eggs too early. Because we thought we were on the path to success and had our market but we didn't, we were painted into a corner, so they owned everything around us.

So that's when I ventured up here then to northwest Arkansas, loved the brands that still want to be a part of it and looked at other markets that were open. St. Louis was one of them, northwest Arkansas. So ended up coming to northwest Arkansas, taking a look at it here and really liked the area. Obviously people that live in northwest Arkansas can understand it's a beautiful special place.

But in terms of gym world too, there wasn't much competition for Plant Fitness at that time. So ended up buying again, learned my lesson the first time, bought a large area that we could develop and that was 2010 and fast forward 10 years, ended up partnering with private equity in 2016 and we ended up scaling our group to 91 locations and last across six states, had 91 locations. Ended up exiting last year, thankfully at the highest exit valuation to date, Planet Fitness. So it was a exceptional journey and along the way as an entrepreneur you always want and think you can do everything and want to gobble down more. So got into a couple other different businesses and I knew when Planet Fitness that chapter was over, I would want to jump into something else, which today for me, my primary singular focus for the majority of time is Seven Brew model I'm a part of right now.

Robert Wagner:

Right. All right. That's a fantastic story and congratulations on that exit. That's fantastic. I just want to continue, and you sort of opened the door here for this next question around the multi-unit franchisee. And I know the footprint of a Planet Fitness and a Seven Brew are completely different, but I want you to talk a little bit about just the mindset that it takes to open new facilities, build them, open them, nurture them while you still have all the previous locations to nurture as well. A lot of business owners, they may open one or two additional branches or something and it's a huge thing in their professional life. But to be a successful multi-unit franchisee, you got to do this kind of weekly or monthly or something like that. What does it take to have that kind of mindset and be successful with that?

Brandon Sebald:

Yeah, phenomenal question. I've kind of failed to answer that even earlier on of why franchising in it bakes into this question you're asking, Robert, of I could have went and opened Brandon's House of Fitness, right? And to your point, maybe open two or three of them if I copycatted the Planet Fitness model. But you end up signing on for a franchise because of the brand name, McDonald's, Planet Fitness or what have you. And their ability to have buying power behind them, marketing behind them, a team that has a playbook set up for you to be successful. So you start with that, you start with selecting the right brand in the industry that you're passionate about. I think those two things are key. Obviously a successful model, but then you have to be passionate about it. It's hard to do something, in my opinion, if you're just not all in on what you're selling at the end of the day.

So you put those two ingredients together and then to scale up business, it is very challenging. And I learned these things early on as I grew. One of the things I always did was attach myself to mentors and any young individuals listening to this. I mentor several people myself right now to give back. It's learn from people that have done it before and learn from their life lessons on how to deal, and how to scale, how to grow, how to treat people, about culture. But to scale a business, again going from zero to 91 locations, it takes a team, a village, a city to grow like that. So you have to get people around you that can help you scale. You cannot do it by yourself. The beauty is though, if you have a great model and you put the right people in the right seat on the bus, you can go really far and scale that model.

Robert Wagner:

Great stuff. You mentioned culture a couple of times and developing people and the joy of developing people, and in your bio it talks about... It lists one of your skills on LinkedIn as extreme ownership, which is Jocko Willink, I think he invented the term and wrote the book about it. What does it mean to you? How do you apply it day to day?

Brandon Sebald:

Yeah, I like the research on that. Yeah, Extreme Ownership, one of my favorite books out there, any entrepreneur that hasn't read it should read it. And entrepreneurs and all people in general, I got to kind of dive into this rabbit hole of myself included. Everybody has a little bit of an ego. You think you're always right. But when you really realize it and become humble and own everything. As an entrepreneur, again, you're the top dog so to speak, right, on your team. Even if your team makes a mistake, you have to take ownership for that because they're your team. So you step up, you kind of take that bullet and that earns you the respect of your team where you're always going to be the one that steps up and ultimately you're the boss, so your head rolls at the end of the day.

So that concept of extreme ownership of taking on accountability is how we run our business across the board. And it's a thing, a cultural end or mindset that we instill in our team of owning it, right? Taking ownership, we go into every year in our end of year huddle of just understanding our goals for the next year and taking ownership in them.

So really instilling that in your culture is the utmost important to me. And when you involve your team to taking one step further, when you do these planning sessions with your team and you allow them to be at the table and make decisions with you and come up with your next year annual goals, then automatically when they're part of the decision process, they automatically take ownership, right? Because Robert was part of that decision. Now Robert can own it and be more behind it so that all wires into that extreme ownership kind of mindset. Jocko is very big in our group. We talk about him all the time. We follow... Our team is all about professional development to reading his series of books, his podcast that he has, follow him on Instagram. I think it's important though to always just professionally develop yourself and your team, just to continue to grow.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, great. Good stuff. So you mentioned a few minutes ago about being passionate about the brand and the product and so you're in the coffee business now and so I assume you're a coffee lover, but I want to ask you this question. So we had Tom Gordon on, who's a co-founder of Slim Chickens, also based there in northwest Arkansas. And I ask him this question about chicken that I want to ask you about coffee. Is there just an insatiable demand for coffee in this country or maybe even globally? I mean it seems like we can't get enough.

Brandon Sebald:

Yes, there definitely is. I mean I love coffee. It was one of those brands that when I told you when I sold Planet Fitness, there was things that I was looking into when I was looking into other models and what to go into. I've been passionate about coffee forever, just I'm a coffee fan, coffee snob so to speak.

But coffee is one of those things that it's people, their daily routine has habits involved in it. And with Planet Fitness, it might have been working out. People have the habit of working out and then that's a service you're providing to solve a solution and an environment for them to work out. Coffee, the same thing as you know, almost everybody, nine out of 10 people drinks coffee. So coffee is a very strong habit for myself. I know I can't start my day without a good cup of coffee and then one in the middle of the day. I think if you don't abuse it, it can be one of those things that's a performance enhancer and something that can really help you throughout the day. So, yes, to answer that question, I think it's... And when I look at brands, I also want to look at staying power too.

If there's a brand that has a certain industry but you think you hear the term of fad or something that might not be around for a while, like fitness, fitness isn't like going anywhere. And you look at coffee industry, we do coffee, energy drinks, and teas, right? But coffee and energy drinks at Seven Brew, I think we could all agree coffee's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. So let me just jump in right there because you really nailed where I was going. On the website at Seven Brew, it talks about the goal to change the drive-through coffee experience into a fun mind blowing experience for everyone. So I guess tell us what that means, but I really want you to talk more broadly if you can, about how all of us as business owners should think about creating that kind of employee or not an employee, but customer experience.

Brandon Sebald:

What's special about Seven Brew that drive-through concept, drive-through is obviously big today, right? Coffee is big, but what Seven Brew has done that differentiates us, I mean what we're doing at Seven Brew is, we are revolutionizing the coffee business. We're not just selling coffee there, we're selling an experience. If you go through one of our locations, we have a double drive-through lane. So it enables people to get through there fast. But what also is happening in that double drive-through lane is we have these double doors on the side. So our team is outside with iPads. We like to tell the story of that Seven Brew is the marriage of Starbucks and Chick-fil-A and if they had a baby it'd be Seven Brew. Because Starbucks were selling coffee, energy drinks. Chick-fil-A as everybody knows, great customer service. But what they do is they're great at speed.

So Chick-fil-A in the sense that we have the iPads out there, so we'll have four or five kids and I say kids, 18 to 20 something year olds taking orders that are just this young energetic individual that's happy because that culture that Seven Brew has created, again, their mission statement is cultivating kindness and they live it on a daily basis. So you get that, you hire the right individual that is that energetic person, that is just a kind person wants to put a smile on somebody's face. You get them out in that drive-through stack interacting face to face, a foot away from a customer. In today's age as you know, a lot of work from home stuff, not a lot of... As much interaction as there used to be. So when you can sell an experience where they're having a positive interaction and they'll know Robert by the second time he is in there, "Robert, how are you? Are you getting the medium iced Blondie with a little whipped cream and caramel drizzle on top?"

They'll remember these orders and they'll say, "Oh Robert, love your truck. What you just get it washed today? What are you doing today? You going to the Hogs game?" And it's that personal connection that you see every time. And there's a great ambiance of music outside too. So it's impossible not to go through the Seven Brew and not have a great experience and a smile on your face to start your day. So I would say you combine all those things together and you see a special brand of what's going to also bring people back, right? Why wouldn't Robert come back and want to experience that again tomorrow and the next day to get his coffee that Robert's going to get anyway, right? It's like kind of part of his routine and his habit.

But he can go see Billy or Suzy at the stand that's going to have a great interaction with him, really become kind of part of his family and he's going to get sent off on his day fast with a smile on his face. So as you can tell, I could talk about it all day long because it's a special brand that I didn't know I would ever find again, coming from another, you might call it a unicorn of Planet Fitness, but Seven Brew is that times 10 as well.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah so let's just keep going there. So how are you finding enough kind people and kind excited young people? Do you have phenomenal training? What's happening there? Because I mean talent wars are everywhere.

Brandon Sebald:

There is and we all know that, anybody in business right now knows how challenging it is to hire, right, and wages where they are. So that's the other special secret sauce there, Robert, is this brand just, it attracts this type of individual. There's a lot of brand awareness when we open up in a market, there's been some buzz. They've done a great job in social media and marketing and you can see and feel that energy. But what we do, again, culture has to be in your roots for sure, in my opinion, to make waves and make a dent in people's lives nowadays. So we actually, what we have is a chief culture officer on our team and they're in charge of hiring the right. We actually have 50 people that work at each one of these stands, but most people wouldn't even believe that either. You'd think it's half of that or less.

So their entire job is to bring in the right individual into that, our stands as we call them. So they go on this crusade of a month long process and it's actually dwindling down. Sometimes it takes two to three weeks just to hire 50 people. And then how we do that, I mean they'll interview a couple hundred individuals, but if we have a site, for instance, we're interviewing in Searcy, Arkansas today and tomorrow, so our second week already down there. So we have a site picked out, we put one of our signs on there, has a QR code where they can learn more about us. So they automatically... We have a landing page for our group@sevenbrewcrew.com if anybody would like to check it out. And you can see it has videos. So it shows that positive energy from inside a stand.

They get to see right away what the job looks like on a daily basis. So that real visual stuff which everybody attached themselves to nowadays. So by there they're able to apply right away through our landing page there. And again, it attracts a certain individual and our pay rates are uber competitive and our employees are making anywhere from $16 to $20 an hour once they bake in tips and everything too. So they're getting paid exceptionally well. So you bake that pay rate together with that culture, and again, you get them on our landing page or their friends referring them, they end up applying and we'll get several hundred applications, 300 to 400 applications for a site. And then we do this group interview process where you can really find out in a group setting of how individuals interact with each other. As I noted earlier, we're selling the experience first, we want to give our customer a great experience.

So this individual has to be highly energetic, a kind person. And when you put somebody in a group setting, it's challenging to hide that, they're either going to be bubbly and energetic or likely not. So we have our new store opening team that sits down with these individuals, goes through our process of our questions, and they've really gotten it down to a science so far. We'll be opening our 10th and 11th store here this month already in a year. And hiring 50 kids at each one of these stands by this process and they know what the right fit is to be successful in our stores.

Robert Wagner:

That is great. So Brandon, thanks so much for being with us, now we do have five questions that we ask every guest.

Brandon Sebald:

Okay,

Robert Wagner:

You ready? All right.

Brandon Sebald:

I'm ready. I better be ready. Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

So what was the first way you made money?

Brandon Sebald:

First way I made money?

Robert Wagner:

Yeah.

Brandon Sebald:

Back in school, me and my little brother used to, we'd have Snicker bars or Skittles and then sell them at lunchtime for a little bit of a markup.

Robert Wagner:

There you go. Selling convenience, right?

Brandon Sebald:

Yeah.

Robert Wagner:

Awesome. So if you were not an entrepreneur and a franchisee, what do you think you would be doing?

Brandon Sebald:

That's a great question. I'd have to kind of hinge back towards athletics. And for me, as you've heard through today, it's a lot about culture and sports is just one thing. You have that locker room of your teammates there. So I would probably be somewhat involved with sports, whether it's coaching or just around that team environment.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, okay. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Brandon Sebald:

What would I tell my 20 year old self? That's a great one. There's some things today that I do, and today there's so much content out there that's free like podcasts and books. I would probably tell myself earlier, like I told you, I did attach myself to mentors, but I wish I started maybe reading some leadership professional development books a little bit sooner. And today it's not just books. I mean, you could be driving your car listening to audio books or great podcasts, but these are people that are giving their blueprint for success away for free. A lot of these great individuals, I like Annie [inaudible 00:28:55] and My Letter to Podcasts, I listen to her, David Novak, they're having other entrepreneurs or people that you aspire to be like, on and telling their story of how to be successful. So that's what I would tell my 20 year old self is get into that professional development a little bit earlier. And I think it just speeds up your learning curve on everything.

Robert Wagner:

Right. Okay. So what will the title of your book be?

Brandon Sebald:

Well, I got it, Robert. Persistence Pays. It's kind of one of my internal core values because today's age, I do see people unfortunately give up maybe a little bit sooner than they could. They might be right at the edge of success. So been one of the linchpins of my success is just persistence. Anybody that knows me would tell you that I'm a very persistent person. I think persistence over time compounds to just success.

Robert Wagner:

Right.

Brandon Sebald:

So there it is, Robert, I owe you now my future book. I'm going to owe that to you. It's called Persistence Pays.

Robert Wagner:

All right, last question. I hope you write that book. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Brandon Sebald:

Best piece of advice I've ever been given. Lot of things flooding my mind right now, but one that just... I always think back then to my mentors and people that had a really large impact on my life. And I have to do a twofer on this one, Robert.

Robert Wagner:

Okay.

Brandon Sebald:

Because they're kind of both in my mind. And the first one is leave a dent. And this came from one of my mentors from the private equity group. His name was Casey Moylan, an individual that took PF Chang's from 10 units to 200, and his whole concept was he was just a high energy guy all the time and brilliant man. But one of his theories was, whatever you do in life, leave a dent in them where they're going to remember. You don't want to just be somebody that just kind of passed through.

They're going to remember you because you left a dent in their life. So that was something in whatever you're doing, do it with everything you have, and literally leave a dent in their life. And the second one that I still take with me here today would be a concept of assume positive intent and what that is, I would've said extreme ownership is another one that I live by, but we covered that already. But assume positive intent, Robert. I think it's something a lot of people can learn from, and one of my mentor's name is Jeff Health Gott, taught me this one here is oftentimes when people are trying to help you again, that ego can find its way in and you think they're trying to be combative or get in your way versus taking the approach of assuming that the individuals having a conversation with you has positive intent.

So if you go into each conversation, each meeting, interactions in life without a negative connotation of what they're bringing towards you, but rather with assume positive intent. If Robert's bringing me constructive criticism, I can be take that negatively and kind of clam up, or I can assume positive intent and assume Robert actually's just trying to help me get better as an individual or succeed in life. So it's a very valuable one for me is early on is, and you're young, you think you're bulletproof, right? You think you have it all figured out. It's something I wish I learned earlier and this individual helped me learn. This is just always assume the person on the other side of it has positive intent. Worst case they prove you wrong, but you'll learn that as well too and who to trust and telltale signs there. But that would be the two answers that I would give you right there.

Robert Wagner:

Those are both fantastic.

Brandon Sebald:

Positive intent.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah, those are both fantastic. I love leave a dent. And then we've talked internally about assume positive intent, particularly during the pandemic. We all got so sensitive and kind of hair trigger on everything and our emotions and our feelings and everything. It's like, hey, let's step back. Let's assume positive intent and start there.

Brandon Sebald:

Indeed, a life lesson that we can all learn from and take with us.

Robert Wagner:

Yeah. Well, Brandon, this has been a fascinating conversation and I appreciate you being with us so much. That's all for this episode of How That Happened. Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit howthathappened.com for show notes and additional episodes. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, or Stitcher. Thanks again for listening. This content is for information purposes only and does not constitute professional advice. Copyright 2023 HoganTaylor LLP. All rights reserved. To view the HoganTaylor General terms and conditions, visit www.hogantaylor.com.